Guest phatdaddy Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 (edited) woops. Wrong account -uruviel Edited August 28, 2006 by phatdaddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uruviel Posted August 28, 2006 Author Share Posted August 28, 2006 haha. I found it interesting, I wanted to discuss it, see what y'alls perspectives were on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillT Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 Ooo! A fun Philisophical thread! [quote name='uruviel' post='1049818' date='Aug 24 2006, 03:35 PM'] Now, here's something interesting, not everything we imagine, God will create. I'm not saying He has a fault, or a lack of something, He is an infinetly perfect being, perfect and excisting in Himself. Not everything we imagine, God can create. Do you think God could create a rock that is too heavy for Him to lift? No. That is a contradiction of terms, it is a contradiction of reality, and God doesn't contradict reality. Now I suppose He could, for He can do anything, but we cannot comprehend a way for God to contradict reality. We cannot comprehend a rock that is too heavy for a perfect being to lift. [/quote] Interesting thoughts. I have a question in regards to your definition of reality, however. God HAS/DOES contradict(ed) reality as understood from the human standpoint (i.e. the standpoint of human understanding/experience). For example, a virgin birth does not happen in our understanding of reality, nor does water turn to wine, nor a man rise from the dead after three days, nor does bread and wine change substantially into flesh and blood. All of these actions (and many others like them), however, God has/does indeed perform(ed). [quote name='son_of_angels' post='1051378' date='Aug 26 2006, 11:01 PM'] Imagine this. If I choose not to lift a rock, I maintain a certain potentiality to in fact lift that rock sometime in the future. For all that I decide not to do something, I cannot remove myself of the potentiality to do it, because I am a created being and not a Creator, and do not change the reality of something by my very being. Hence, my decision not to lift a rock has no substantial effect on me and that rock. [/quote] I disagree. When you walk past said rock at 3:00 PM on August 27th, 2006 and you choose not to pick it up you have indeed lost potentiality. Namely you have lost the potentiality to pick up said rock at 3:00 PM on August 27th, 2006 as this exact moment will never again be present! It also has a substantial effect upon both you and the rock. To imagine this, first let's give the rock a name. I'll call it "Bob the rock". Had you picked up "Bob the rock", you would be "man with Bob the rock" as it stands however, you are "man without Bob the rock". This is a substantial difference in my opinion because it changes your potentiality. If you pick up "Bob the rock", you no longer have the pontentiality to pick up "Bob the rock" at 3:00 PM on August 27th, 2006 as you have actualized your pontential, destroying it by virtue of the very definitiopn of potentiality. You also now have many new potentialities concerning "Bob the rock". For example you have the added pontentiality of throwing "Bob the rock" at my head. If I have misunderstood your point please explain it again for me. P.S. This is fun stuff! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
son_of_angels Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 My argument then would be that time never has any real potentiality, at least in as far as we experience it within our own given frame of reference. We always experience time while it is active, and never while it is dormant, or there would be a contradition; we would be moving in time in order to experience the potentiality of time itself, which cannot be the case, since something which is potential is not in fact happening. Get it? I'm not sure if I am correct, especially at this time of the night... Anyway, to place your example within the above hypothesis, an action like "picking up the rock" in terms of potentiality cannot be considered potential or in motion with regards to time. If I say, I am going to pick up Bob the rock at 3:00, that is no different in terms of the potentiality of yourself and the rock than saying, I am going to pick up the rock, b/c time is not, unless you are God and can experience time in multiple fashions, a frame of reference for potentiality.... maybe that's what I'm trying to say... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groo the Wanderer Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 Let us not forget that God created time, and as such is not bound by time. If God so chooses at 4pm, from our frame of reference, to pick up Bob the Rock at 3pm, from our frame of reference, he most certainly can and could do so. For God, time is irrelevant. Remembering this helps our heads to not hurt so much when we try to comprehend the fact that God has no beginning and has no end. To impose ANY limits on God, including that of the flow of time is futile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitchell_b55 Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 Very simply, evil is the lack of positive good, as someone said above. It isn't a contrary, or an equal, it is a lack thereof. Darkness is not contrary to light, but is the lack of light. Heat is not contrary to cold, but is the lack of the cold. Now understand me when I say contrary, I speak of two things that are equal in their properties. God could not exist in infinite goodness, if evil was contrarily infinite, but really it is not a contrary at all, but a lack of good. I'm not sure if my two cents helped any, and I didn't get to read the whole discussion. First, day of school and boring study hall and all, but that is the fact. As for budge, he isn't contrarily equal in his rebellion against authority, he simply lacks obedience. As for error, it is the lack of truth. There is only one thing, and then the lack of that thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 [quote name='WillT' post='1051996' date='Aug 28 2006, 01:46 AM'] I disagree. When you walk past said rock at 3:00 PM on August 27th, 2006 and you choose not to pick it up you have indeed lost potentiality. Namely you have lost the potentiality to pick up said rock at 3:00 PM on August 27th, 2006 as this exact moment will never again be present! It also has a substantial effect upon both you and the rock. To imagine this, first let's give the rock a name. I'll call it "Bob the rock". Had you picked up "Bob the rock", you would be "man with Bob the rock" as it stands however, you are "man without Bob the rock". This is a substantial difference in my opinion because it changes your potentiality. If you pick up "Bob the rock", you no longer have the pontentiality to pick up "Bob the rock" at 3:00 PM on August 27th, 2006 as you have actualized your pontential, destroying it by virtue of the very definitiopn of potentiality. You also now have many new potentialities concerning "Bob the rock". For example you have the added pontentiality of throwing "Bob the rock" at my head. If I have misunderstood your point please explain it again for me. [/quote] Still while in the past you may have lost the potential to lift the rock, you still have the potential to lift the rock at some point in the future. I would really suggest reading part of the thread I posted above. The answer to the question 'Could God create a rock too heavy to lift?' is no. From CAM42 in the other thread [quote]Hey guys...... The reason that the answer is no, is because the first premise is a fallacy. The question is nonsensical. One of the things about our language is that we can say things that don't make sense. This doesn't call into question the omnipotence or omniscience of God, but rather the limitations of our knowledge of God. It is on the same plane as saying, "Can God make a 4 sided triangle?" or "Can God make a square circle?" The premise is flawed. The conclusion cannot follow, it is a logical impossiblity.[/quote] I thought I'd throw in another reply I have heard to this question.... "Could God create a rock so heavy he couldn't lift it?" Well sure... if you assume that he can do the impossible by creating the rock too heavy for him to lift, then why not assume he can do the impossible one more time and lift it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 God cannot make a 4 sided triangle, a sqaured circle, or a rock bigger than He can lift for one reason. the above are lies. God. Cannot. Lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bball33 Posted August 29, 2006 Share Posted August 29, 2006 (edited) [quote name='MIkolbe' post='1052187' date='Aug 28 2006, 03:54 PM'] God cannot make a 4 sided triangle, a sqaured circle, or a rock bigger than He can lift for one reason. the above are lies. God. Cannot. Lie. [/quote] Lol. I have to say this, though: God controls all reality. We just view that reality with our own perception. God can do whatever He wants, because if He says so, triangles can become 4-sided, and circles can become square. However, it's all a moot point, but I just thought it was funny. Now, the rock bigger than He can lift-that's interesting, and too deep for my brain today, lol. Edited August 29, 2006 by michaelismycn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted August 29, 2006 Share Posted August 29, 2006 [quote name='michaelismycn' post='1052807' date='Aug 29 2006, 10:17 AM'] Lol. I have to say this, though: God controls all reality. We just view that reality with our own perception. God can do whatever He wants, because if He says so, triangles can become 4-sided, and circles can become square. However, it's all a moot point, but I just thought it was funny. Now, the rock bigger than He can lift-that's interesting, and too deep for my brain today, lol. [/quote] God can only do whatever he wants, insomuchas it is true. God can't sin. though, i doubt he would 'want' to sin. a 4 sided triangle is a square. a triangle is not a square, any attempts to say they are or could be equal is a lie. God cannot lie. to lie is to sin. God cannot sin. reality is subjective. truth is objective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uruviel Posted August 29, 2006 Author Share Posted August 29, 2006 yes, all those are contradictions of terms and reality. To us, we are bound by those terms. Is God? Is God inable to contradict reality? Is God bound by the rules of reality? I would not say God is lying. God is incapable of lying, yes, very true, but to say that to make a triangle and a square exist together in the same being is a total LIE, you could also be saying that the Trinity is a total lie. Be careful. The Blessed trinity is far beyond our comprehension yet we believe it because it is a supernatural mystery. If God were to reveal to us that a triangle can exist as a square at the same time we would have no other choice than to believe Him. I take that back, God gives us our free will but in not believing him we are denying church teaching and Christ. To say God cannot contradict reality is saying God cannot exist with 3 persons in the same divine nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted August 29, 2006 Share Posted August 29, 2006 no one said that God could not make something be both, at the same time, a triangle and a sqare. God could certainly do that. what He could not do is make a "triangle" which is four sided. human beings invented the words 'triangle' and 'square'. they are what we name them. if God made a four-sided object, we would call it a square. if God made a three sided object, we would call it a triangle. God cannot make a four sided object that we would rightly call a 'triangle'. thus, God cannot make a four sided triangle. perhaps God could make something which was at the same time a square and a triangle, and we could not comprehend it, but He could not make a four-sided triangle because a four-sided triangle is not a triangle, it is a square. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uruviel Posted August 29, 2006 Author Share Posted August 29, 2006 hehe... ok I get it. It is because of our language that it is impossible for God to do that. Got it. But I still wouldn't call it a 'lie'. That's not the reason God 'can't' do it. it's not becuase he'd be lying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillT Posted August 30, 2006 Share Posted August 30, 2006 [quote name='Groo the Wanderer' post='1052047' date='Aug 28 2006, 08:02 AM'] Let us not forget that God created time, and as such is not bound by time. If God so chooses at 4pm, from our frame of reference, to pick up Bob the Rock at 3pm, from our frame of reference, he most certainly can and could do so. For God, time is irrelevant. Remembering this helps our heads to not hurt so much when we try to comprehend the fact that God has no beginning and has no end. To impose ANY limits on God, including that of the flow of time is futile. [/quote] [quote name='rkwright' post='1052100' date='Aug 28 2006, 10:21 AM'] Still while in the past you may have lost the potential to lift the rock, you still have the potential to lift the rock at some point in the future. I would really suggest reading part of the thread I posted above. The answer to the question 'Could God create a rock too heavy to lift?' is no. From CAM42 in the other thread I thought I'd throw in another reply I have heard to this question.... "Could God create a rock so heavy he couldn't lift it?" Well sure... if you assume that he can do the impossible by creating the rock too heavy for him to lift, then why not assume he can do the impossible one more time and lift it! [/quote] Well, it seems like I should have clarified my position. I know the the answer is "no" (in fact I read the whole earlier thread the first time it was active), I was just arguing from a human perspective, not God's. I wasn't trying to place God under the limits of time, either, but again humans are under time limitations. [quote name='uruviel' post='1053053' date='Aug 29 2006, 04:51 PM'] yes, all those are contradictions of terms and reality. To us, we are bound by those terms. Is God? Is God inable to contradict reality? Is God bound by the rules of reality? [/quote] OK, now I'm really confused. I thought you said earlier that God would not contradict reality, but now you're saying He's not bound by reality? Can you please clarify your thoughts for me? I have a cold and I'm probably not following you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted August 30, 2006 Share Posted August 30, 2006 God is reality. God contradicting reality is like God contradicting God: IMPOSIBLE I SAY! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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