cmotherofpirl Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 Also, I know for my church, and for others, we have accountability groups. Where we have other Christians help us to stay accountable for our actions. But nobody in your group has the power to absolve you of your sins.,," whose sins you forgive hey are forgiven."... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 There is a plenary indulgence available to all human beings at the moment of death for "performing a pious action" its only requirement is that the soul in question be in a state of Grace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewReformation Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 But nobody in your group has the power to absolve you of your sins.,," whose sins you forgive hey are forgiven."... Nope, we leave that to God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce S Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 But nobody in your group has the power to absolve you of your sins.,," whose sins you forgive hey are forgiven."... When the paralytic was lowered into the home by his four friends, first Jesus forgave his sins, then facing the wrath of the Jews for this Heresy, saying "Only God can forgive sins" he then healed the man, he got up and walked. It was the FAITH of his friends in bringing the man to Jesus that was the key to forgiveness of sin, not the ACT of a rite of a denominational priest. Faith in Jesus, is key here, not mans work. We are told to "confess our sins to each other" by Paul, he never says that this gives absolution ... only God can do that, we should confess to each other for reasons of accountablity as Circle earlier stated. Absolution is not a sacrament, it is the right, and gift of God to every believer in His son Jesus Christ who died for our salvation, His attoning act, is the salvation from sin, and we never should forget that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 When the paralytic was lowered into the home by his four friends, first Jesus forgave his sins, then facing the wrath of the Jews for this Heresy, saying "Only God can forgive sins" he then healed the man, he got up and walked. It was the FAITH of his friends in bringing the man to Jesus that was the key to forgiveness of sin, not the ACT of a rite of a denominational priest. Faith in Jesus, is key here, not mans work. Let's take a look at Matthew 9:2-8: And behold they brought to him [Jesus] one sick of the palsy lying in a bed. And Jesus, seeing their faith, said to the man sick of the palsy: Be of good heart, son, thy sins are forgiven thee. And behold some of the scribes said within themselves: He blasphemeth.And Jesus seeing their thoughts, said: Why do you think evil in your hearts? Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins are forgiven thee: or to say, Arise, and walk? But that you may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then said he to the man sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go into thy house. And he arose, and went into his house. And the multitude seeing it, feared, and glorified God that gave such power to men. This is extremely significant! Jesus says He forgives sins in His human (not His divine) capacity, wherefore He uses the term "Son of Man" as opposed to "Son of God" and emphasizes that He has power on earth to forgive sins. We then read that God gave "such power to men." So there you have it. God gave the authority/power to absolve from and retain sins to MEN. Note it says MEN, not MAN (the Greek word used is anthropois, and that is plural). It does not refer only to one man, i.e. only to Jesus. We are told to "confess our sins to each other" by Paul, he never says that this gives absolution ... only God can do that, we should confess to each other for reasons of accountablity as Circle earlier stated. Absolution is not a sacrament, it is the right, and gift of God to every believer in His son Jesus Christ who died for our salvation, His attoning act, is the salvation from sin, and we never should forget that. Number one, isn't it James who said that? Number two, if that's who you're referring to, then you're ignoring the verses before it: James 5:14-16: Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the church and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man. And the Lord shall raise him up: and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him. Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much. Here we have an example of forgiveness of God through a priest. St. James tells us that, if we are sick, we are to call for the priests of the church. By the prayer of that priest, the sick person's sins will be forgiven; that's what the text says plainly! Then James goes on to say, "Confess your sins one to another." Here, however, you make the mistake of lifting the whole verse out of context by insisting that it means everybody is to confess their sins to anybody else. Not true. Let's stick with the context. It refers to the sick person confessing his sins to the priest and vice versa. Thus, verse 16 concludes or summarizes the preceding verses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce S Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 This is extremely significant! Jesus says He forgives sins in His human (not His divine) capacity, wherefore He uses the term "Son of Man" as opposed to "Son of God" and emphasizes that He has power on earth to forgive sins. We then read that God gave "such power to men." So there you have it. God gave the authority/power to absolve from and retain sins to MEN. Note it says MEN, not MAN (the Greek word used is anthropois, and that is plural). It does not refer only to one man, i.e. only to Jesus. He [correct me if I'm in error] never called himself anything other than Son of Man, and never used DIRECTLY Son of God. Right? I grant you that the CROWD marveled at MAN having such powers, that is completely accurate. However, where is implied that this is what Jesus did that day? It was NOT "men" [plural] that healed, NOR forgave sin, it was Jesus. So the crowd and it's thinking isn't material here, for the "plural...Men" were NOT involved. Good point however, I have to grant you that one. I had to sit her for 15 minutes to think this one completely through. I actually was one of the better responses gotten here, and I thank you for taking the time to give me additional questions causing me to delve more into this passage. Excellent, thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce S Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 (edited) NIV version: James 5 14Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. 16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective. Catholic Bible version: James 5:14-16: Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the church and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man. And the Lord shall raise him up: and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him. Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much. As is normally the case when the Catholic Church wants to "show" something, they substitute a term for a known word with one that supports their doctrines. I went and researched this difference. The word that the Catholic bible converts to "priest" is Presbuteros, which IS NOT the same for an ordained ONLY member of a denomination, it is for those who were in the leadership of the church, laymen as well as Apostles. http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1...60-7284.html#14 Here we have an example of forgiveness of God through a priest. St. James tells us that, if we are sick, we are to call for the priests of the church. By the prayer of that priest, the sick person's sins will be forgiven. I think that the better term is Elder. Last night, we had a one hour healing prayer meeting in our chuch, those in need raised hands, the ELDERS and the pastor put hands on them, then we, the rest, put our hands on them forming a huge ring of praying people seeking God's assistance for those in need of healing. Oil is often put on heads too, when hands are laid on. I think the term Priest, narrows down the Greek to a denominational perogative, diminishing the intended broadly based definition of whom has the right to ask for healing grace. Edited January 8, 2004 by Bruce S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulls Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 wow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PedroX Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Bruce, Don't you have some sort of ordination for your elders? Some ceremony where authority is conferred upon them? The Presbyterian Church also translates that word to read elders, and they had two classes of elders: ruling elders and teaching elders (pastors). Both classes however, were ordained and so had claims to authority. I'm confused by your insistence that they word can not mean "ordained only member of a denomination" (quote is yours). peace... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce S Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Don't you have some sort of ordination for your elders? Some ceremony where authority is conferred upon them? We may, I'm personally not sure, I haven't observed one. They are elected by the congregation at a special meeting. They have a nominating committee, bio's are circulated and the election is held. Let me look on the AofGod site to see if there is anything there.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Also, I know for my church, and for others, we have accountability groups. Where we have other Christians help us to stay accountable for our actions. Do y'all base this on biblical examples? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Do y'all base this on biblical examples? principles, or examples Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 It was the FAITH of his friends in bringing the man to Jesus that was the key to forgiveness of sin, It was his Faith that healed him; It was Jesus who forgave the man's sins. It is Jesus who forgives our sins also, in the confessional. He simply GAVE THAT POWER to His priests. The Apostles knew this, they passed it on to the next, and the next, and the next, to this day. If you disagree, then please research and tell us when people began confessing to priests. It began with the Apostles. Pax Christi. <>< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Nope, we leave that to God. Yes, Will, but GOD left that to His Apostles, the first bishops of His Church. "Then, He breathed on them, and said: 'Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven. Whose sins you hold bound, they are held bound.'" Think of it this way: God gives engineers the intelligence to come up with various plumbing plans, including the shower. We all use our showers, with a little soap and water, to get clean. Or, we could go directly to GOD to get clean, wait for the next rainshower, and run naked with a bar of soap. Well, GOD will certainly get us clean that way, but it may not be the best way to get clean... On the spiritual level, God has breathed the Holy Spirit into His ordained representatives on earth, to forgive men's sins in persona Christi. There is real spiritual power, real annointing in the priesthood, and these men are ordained by GOD to forgive men's sins. The Bible tells us this. So, when we want our souls to be all sparkley clean, we simply step into our Spiritual Shower, invented by GOD and given to His Church, and we step out spiritually clean and refreshed. It is an exhilarating experience. Too bad some are so self-focused that they fear making use of this gift from God. And the "no mediator" thing pertains to no one else being able to offer himself as a sacrifice for our sins to God. Christ has already done that for us. It does not mean that Christ couldn't appoint others to act in His name, which, Scripture shows, He did do. Pax Christi. <>< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 As is normally the case when the Catholic Church wants to "show" something, they substitute a term for a known word with one that supports their doctrines. Protestant: World English Bible: "elders of the assembly" King James Version: "elders of the church" Catholic: New American Bible: "presbyters of the church" Douay Rheims: "priests of the church" As you can see, two different Protestant versions and two different Catholic versions all interpret this simple statement differently. Are you saying that the Protestant versions are somehow more accurate? Based on what? What makes your translation more authorative than mine? Does one have to be a scholar to decide which is the right version to use? Why must I be a scholar to be assured that I'm following Christ correctly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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