Bible Indulgence

[M.SIGGA]

This is sort of a question for Catholics, since Protestants dismiss indulgences/purgatory completely, but everyone please input:

Enchriridion Indulgentiarum, no.50

A partial indulgence is granted to the faithful who use Sacred Scripture for spiritual reading with the veneration due to the Word of God. A plenary indulgence is granted if the reading continues for at least one half hour.

What does this say about non-Catholic Christians who read the Bible all the time. My best friend who is Baptist grabs his Bible more times than he grabs his keys (which doesn't necessarily mean he's a better Christian than anyone else), and he definitly reads his Bible for hours every day and night. There are lots of Prots, Catholics, and Orthodox Christians like this everywhere.

I know Protestants don't believe in purgatory, but do they have indulgences anyway, sort of by default?

[hyperdulia again]

I think part of the requirement for gaining an indulgence is the intention to gain it and that one have gone to sacramental confession within 8 days of the reception date.

plenary indulgences are different though (i think).

[Jake Huether]

I'm right with you hyp.

The person in question must be in a state of grace. Since Protestants also don't believe in the Sacrament of confession, there is a good chance that after not going to confession for their entire life (or at least a good long portion of it) they might have mortal sin on their souls.

[NewReformation]

I'm right with you hyp.

The person in question must be in a state of grace. Since Protestants also don't believe in the Sacrament of confession, there is a good chance that after not going to confession for their entire life (or at least a good long portion of it) they might have mortal sin on their souls.

Most of us just go straight to God for forgiveness tho.

[Bruce S]

What does this say about non-Catholic Christians who read the Bible all the time. My best friend who is Baptist grabs his Bible more times than he grabs his keys (which doesn't necessarily mean he's a better Christian than anyone else), and he definitly reads his Bible for hours every day and night. There are lots of Prots, Catholics, and Orthodox Christians like this everywhere.

He is ANTAMISED from the get go.

Without THE CHURCH, the can read his "corrupted Bible" forever, and it won't count for him, heretics are heretics, you must understand that basic truth here.

Unless he converts, he is doomed. Grin. That is if he rejects, knowingly, the 'truths" that are the prevalent ideology here and in the Catholic Church.

And yes, Protestants ARE the ones that generally are steeped in the Bible, for them, it is THE WORD OF GOD, and the wisom of the ancients, is welcome, and desired, but just commentary, to be reconcilled against scripture.

Like the Berean's, who listened to Paul, then immediately ran home to check the scriptures to see if he was telling them the truth. To them, if it wasn't scripturally based truth, it was to be rejected. That was the norm then, listen, learn, check against the Word.

[Dave]

Most of us just go straight to God for forgiveness tho.

But the question is, do they have the right dispositions for forgiveness? In other words, does their sorrow for sin arise out of nothing more than true love for God? Or does it arise more out of fear of hell?

[NewReformation]

I would say that for myself and others I know, it arises out of a love for God and a desire to be Holy.

[Anna]

He is ANTAMISED from the get go.

What the heck is ANTAMIZED?

[Jake Huether]

Most of us just go straight to God for forgiveness tho.

I would say that for myself and others I know, it arises out of a love for God and a desire to be Holy.

Catholics go straight to God too!

But the thing isn't whether or not we go straight to God the way we want or prefer, but that we should go straight to God in the way He asked us too!

Jesus told the Apostles, "whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven. whose sins you retain, they are retained."

God is the same for ever and ever, we both agree on that. In the OT the Isrealites had to confess too!

And confession isn't some cruel embarassment that God wishes us to go through. Confessing to a priest is a benefit to us! It is for our own good! Going straight to God without the use of the Sacrament is fine and dandy (not actually), but you are missing the gift that God wants to give you!

This particular Sacrament gives several benefits (which God had in mind when he instituted it). For one, it gives Sacramental Grace to not commit sin again. Another benefit is that you get human interaction, human counsel. God has always worked with our sense, since he gave them to us. Confessing to a priest also makes us acountable not only to ourselves and to God but to another person as well.

It is a gift - not a burden. Think of what God wants. Not what you think He wants, but what He's told us He wants.

[Jake Huether]

And yes, Protestants ARE the ones that generally are steeped in the Bible,

Wrong! They are steeped in their own interpritation of the Bible.

Catholics are read the Bible with it's true intent every Sunday (and for some, every day). And in three years they will have heard the Word of God in entirety. Not their own interpetation of it - God's interpretation of it.

for them, it is THE WORD OF GOD, and the wisom of the ancients, is welcome, and desired, but just commentary, to be reconcilled against scripture.

For us it is the written Word of God, to be married with it's inseperable counterpart, the oral Word of God (Church Tradition and the Magesterium, if you will).

Like the Berean's, who listened to Paul, then immediately ran home to check the scriptures to see if he was telling them the truth. To them, if it wasn't scripturally based truth, it was to be rejected. That was the norm then, listen, learn, check against the Word.

They were new converts, and they went and checked the OT only to confirm what Paul was saying about Christ was true. But Paul, who wrote most of the NT, wasn't talking to established Christians who wanted to learn more about God. Established Christians would already know that he had the Authority to teach in addition to OT Scripture. According to you then I guess we should toss out the NT, since the Berean's only used the OT for checks.

The Bible never commands us to "check the Church with Scripture". Paul tells them to check what he's saying with Scripture so as to afirm Christ's validity. He never told them, "if what I say isn't in the Bible, then it isn't true", otherwise the NT wouldn't have been Scripture. It tells us that the Scriptures are to be used to teach and reproof (which it is), and it is the teaching and the reproofing that makes a man righteous. It never says that ONLY Scripture is to be used to teach. It says that it is valuable to be used to teach. But the teaching would include much more than just the Scripture. When the Apostles taught, they used Scripture + their own understanding and inspiration. For the Holy Spirit lead them to all Truth! The Church wrote the entire NT! The Church's voice and Scripture will always coincide. In fact the one command the Bible gives us is to "check with the Church"! "If he refuses to listen even to the Church (note: the Church is the last step, not the Bible), then treat him as a Gentile and tax collector".

[Anna]

I would say that for myself and others I know, it arises out of a love for God and a desire to be Holy.

Will,

This is one of the three conditions which must be met for a valid confession of one's sins: True Contrition. It means you're truly sorry because you've offended God, Who is All-Good, and deserving of all our love.

The other two conditions are: Penance. We are required to not just 'feel' sorry, but to demonstrate to God that we're sorry with some prayer or good work recommended by our Confessor. It's easy to confess, "I got angry with so and so. But I'm truly sorry." The Confessor may say, "Tell so-and-so you're sorry, anyway you can, over the phone, face to face, or in a note." If we give ourself a penance, it would probably be only as far as we are willing to go. By having a Confessor speak Christ's words to us, we know that this is what Christ is telling us to do (not the priest) It's Christ's words, coming out of the priest's mouth, so to speak.

Thirdly Firm purpose of ammendment. You must fully intend to avoid this sin, and occasions for this sin, in the future. It does no good whatsover to confess with your mouth, "I got drunk Saturday night, and boy, am I sorry," if the plan for next Saturday is a booze bash...

A Confessor may act as a Spiritual Director, an advisor to help you keep on the right track spiritually, and give you counsel to grow in holiness.

Believe me, when we know we've offended God, we feel just awful. Experiencing the gift of the Sacrament of Reconciliation (some call it penance, or confession) is such a cleansing and healing. We become spiritually strengthened when we submit to the authorities Christ established, humbling ourselves, and following HIS plan for our salvation, not our own.

Pax Christi. <><

[mulls]

But the question is, do they have the right dispositions for forgiveness? In other words, does their sorrow for sin arise out of nothing more than true love for God? Or does it arise more out of fear of hell?

similar question, relating back to the topic:

would God (or the Church, i don't know how this works) give an indulgence to somebody who was reading the bible just for the sake of getting an indulgence, rather than doing so out of true love for God? or is it allowed to arise more out of trying to get out of purgatory quicker? (thats what an indulgence does, right?)

would it work if one said "ok, let me put in my 30 minutes of scripture reading, i guess i'll read Job since my life is miserable as well, and maybe something else in case i get through it too quickly."

i'm not cracking a joke here (well, kinda), just making the point to see if one's attitude and reasoning has any affect on the matter.

[Anna]

The granting of indulgences is a power which Christ left to His Church.

The Church sets the standards for how to attain an indulgence.

An indulgence can be applied to your own soul, to the soul of dearly departed loved one, or in general, "for the poor souls in purgatory." Your departed loved one may already be in heaven, who knows? (only God!) But He will not waste the gifts and promises He bestows upon His Church.

A greedy or insincere person might think just as you claim, Will, but one who feels charity toward the suffering souls will feel much differently. A sincere love of God and neighbor draws that person to read from the Word of God, and also desires that by doing so, it benefit more than just his own intellectual understanding of God, but also benefits his soul or someone else's.

Pax Christi. <><

[NewReformation]

Will,

This is one of the three conditions which must be met for a valid confession of one's sins: True Contrition. It means you're truly sorry because you've offended God, Who is All-Good, and deserving of all our love.

The other two conditions are: Penance. We are required to not just 'feel' sorry, but to demonstrate to God that we're sorry with some prayer or good work recommended by our Confessor. It's easy to confess, "I got angry with so and so. But I'm truly sorry." The Confessor may say, "Tell so-and-so you're sorry, anyway you can, over the phone, face to face, or in a note." If we give ourself a penance, it would probably be only as far as we are willing to go. By having a Confessor speak Christ's words to us, we know that this is what Christ is telling us to do (not the priest) It's Christ's words, coming out of the priest's mouth, so to speak.

Thirdly Firm purpose of ammendment. You must fully intend to avoid this sin, and occasions for this sin, in the future. It does no good whatsover to confess with your mouth, "I got drunk Saturday night, and boy, am I sorry," if the plan for next Saturday is a booze bash...

A Confessor may act as a Spiritual Director, an advisor to help you keep on the right track spiritually, and give you counsel to grow in holiness.

Believe me, when we know we've offended God, we feel just awful. Experiencing the gift of the Sacrament of Reconciliation (some call it penance, or confession) is such a cleansing and healing. We become spiritually strengthened when we submit to the authorities Christ established, humbling ourselves, and following HIS plan for our salvation, not our own.

Pax Christi. <><

I would say that many of us do meet those three requirements. Those three are so intricantly linked that they cannot be seperated. One cannot be sorry without realizing the need to apologize to the one they have wronged and making what is wrong right. Nor can one be truly sorry if they plan to do it again.

[NewReformation]

Also, I know for my church, and for others, we have accountability groups. Where we have other Christians help us to stay accountable for our actions.