non-christians saved?

[Pontifite 7 of 10]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think;

Sorry not possible Jesus said "Unless you eat my flesh, shall not have life in you."
How can you get to Heaven if you have no life in you?

Again, correct me if I'm wrong.

Edited August 26, 2006 by Pontifite 7 of 10

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='Pontifite 7 of 10' post='1050795' date='Aug 26 2006, 12:27 AM']
Sorry not possible; Jesus said "Unless you eat my flesh, shall not have life in you."
How can you get to Heaven if you have no life in you?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think;
[/quote]
For one invinvibly ignorant of the Real Presence, reception of the Eucharist is unlikely. Again, a Catechumen not yet baptized (yet a sincere believer) has not recieved the Eucharist either. In fact, I think the Roman Martyrology lists some Catechumens as martyrs of the faith. God is not bound by His own rules. God bless.

[Pontifite 7 of 10]

That makes sence.
Thank you.

[Catholic Fanatic]

It should be noted that if you know to be Christian and you are not, the punishment will be eternal and infinite. Your body will be tortured to the point where you should die, but you are already dead. Death will not be an escape for you. You will eternally suffer physical pain and emotional agony knowing that your pain will last forever and ever. Amen.

[Akalyte]

To say non-christians are saved is to render Christianity (read "catholicism") useless. To be saved you need the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ. How hard is that to understand?

I mean come on! Doesnt that say the church means nothing? Doesnt that say that the Trinity means nothing? What is our purpose then? huh?

Why do we have a Church if non-christians are saved?

Edited August 27, 2006 by Akalyte

[chris]

God says that [b]if you are not for him you are against him[/b]. And Christ himself said that [b]no man could serve to masters[/b]. Do I think an atheist that thinks that God is dead is saved from the wrath of God? No. Do I think that he could be once in his life be converted by the power of God? Most definately!

But, outside of that explaination. I really have no right to say who is save and who isnt. So, I dont really know.

Edited August 27, 2006 by Convert4888

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='Akalyte' post='1051187' date='Aug 26 2006, 09:05 PM']
To say non-christians are saved is to render Christianity (read "catholicism") useless. To be saved you need the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ. How hard is that to understand?

I mean come on! Doesnt that say the church means nothing? Doesnt that say that the Trinity means nothing? What is our purpose then? huh?

Why do we have a Church if non-christians are saved?
[/quote]
That non-Christians ignorant of the Gospel can be saved is the constant teaching of the Church. The Church is the doorway to salvation that all who are saved (Christian or not) must go through, whether they know it or not. It is much easier to be saved, however, if you have all the gifts of the Church at your disposal. That is why we must continue to evangelize.
Document dump:
[quote][b]Pope Bl. Pius IX[/b]
We all know that those who suffer from invincible ignorance with regard to our holy religion, if they carefully keep the precepts of the natural law which have been written by God in the hearts of all men, if they are prepared to obey God, and if they lead a virtuous and dutiful life, can, by the power of divine light and grace, attain eternal life. For God, who knows completely the minds and souls, the thoughts and habits of all men, will not permit, in accord with His infinite goodness and mercy, anyone who is not guilty of a voluntary fault to suffer eternal punishment.
On Promotion of False Doctrines (Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, no. 7)
It must, of course, be held as a matter of faith that outside the apostolic Roman Church no one can be saved, that the Church is the only ark of salvation, and that whoever does not enter it will perish in the flood. On the other hand, it must likewise be held as certain that those who are affected by ignorance of the true religion, if it is invincible ignorance, are not subject to any guilt in this matter before the eyes of the Lord.
On the Church in Austria (Singulari Quidam, no. 7)

[b]Pope Pius XII[/b]
As you know, Venerable Brethren, from the very beginning of Our Pontificate, We have committed to the protection and guidance of heaven those who do not belong to the visible Body of the Catholic Church, solemnly declaring that after the example of the Good Shepherd We desire nothing more ardently than that they may have life and have it more abundantly.[194] Imploring the prayers of the whole Church We wish to repeat this solemn declaration in this Encyclical Letter in which We have proclaimed the praises of the "great and glorious Body of Christ"[195] and from a heart overflowing with love We ask each and every one of them to correspond to the interior movements of grace, and to seek to withdraw from that state in which they cannot be sure of their salvation.[196] For even though by an unconscious desire and longing they have a certain relationship with the Mystical Body of the Redeemer, they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church. Therefore may they enter into Catholic unity and, joined with Us in the one, organic Body of Jesus Christ, may they together with us run on to the one Head in the Society of glorious love.[197] Persevering in prayer to the Spirit of love and truth, We wait for them with open and outstretched arms to come not to a stranger's house, but to their own, their father's home. (Mystici Corporis Christi, no. 103).

[b]Dogmatic Constitution on the Church[/b]
Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life (Lumen Gentium, no. 16).

[b]Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World[/b]
(Chapter 1: The Dignity of the Human Person)
All this holds true not only for Christians, but for all men of good will in whose hearts grace works in an unseen way.(31) For, since Christ died for all men,(32) and since the ultimate vocation of man is in fact one, and divine, we ought to believe that the Holy Spirit in a manner known only to God offers to every man the possibility of being associated with this paschal mystery (Gaudium et Spes, no. 22).

[b]Decree on the Church's Missionary Activity[/b]
(Chapter 1: Principles of Doctrine)
Therefore those men cannot be saved, who though aware that God, through Jesus Christ founded the Church as something necessary, still do not wish to enter into it, or to persevere in it."(17) Therefore though God in ways known to Himself can lead those inculpably ignorant of the Gospel to find that faith without which it is impossible to please Him (Heb. 11:6), yet a necessity lies upon the Church (1 Cor. 9:16), and at the same time a sacred duty, to preach the Gospel. And hence missionary activity today as always retains its power and necessity (Ad Gentes, no. 7).

[b]Pope Paul VI[/b]
The Credo of the People of God
We believe that the Church is necessary for salvation, because Christ, who is the sole mediator and way of salvation, renders Himself present for us in His body which is the Church. But the divine design of salvation embraces all men, and those who without fault on their part do not know the Gospel of Christ and His Church, but seek God sincerely, and under the influence of grace endeavor to do His will as recognized through the promptings of their conscience, they, in a number known only to God, can obtain salvation.

[b]Pope John Paul II[/b]
“The universality of salvation means that it is granted not only to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church. Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all. But it is clear that today, as in the past, many people do not have an opportunity to come to know or accept the gospel revelation or to enter the Church. The social and cultural conditions in which they live do not permit this, and frequently they have been brought up in other religious traditions. For such people salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his Sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit. It enables each person to attain salvation through his or her free cooperation.” (Redemptoris Missio, no. 10)[/quote]

[Resurrexi]

I forgot to mention "Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" is a Dogma. But as I said earlier, the Invincably Ignorant are united to the Soul of Holy Mother Church though not Her Body.

[heavenseeker]

i think this has been said already and also said better but heer it goes


If someone is ignorant to Jesus as the Lord and lives out their life according to their beliefs fallowing its teachings then they can still be alowed into the kingdom of heaven. The only way to truely not be alowd in (from what I have heard) is to know Jesus is the Lord and to choose not to follow him.

[Aloysius]

or to die in mortal sin, or to be culpable for not knowing Him (i.e. God gave them the oppurtunity but they did not choose to take it)

traditionally, it is liberally assumed that God gives the oppurtunity to everyone and as such most people who do not know Christ are presumed culpable. moreover, it is our duty as Christians to presume their culpability for not knowing Christ and thus be ever more zealous in bringing Him to them. If we do not act thusly, it may very well turn out that they are completely inculpable for not knowing Christ... but WE may be held culpable for them not knowing Christ.

for every non-Christian (whilst on earth) that goes to heaven, there will probably be a Christian who goes to hell for not giving that non-Christian the chance for salvation.

we are called to live as if we know for certain that everyone ignorant of the Gospel is going to be eternally damned. But once people are dead we can say "we do not know if they were culpable for not knowing Christ" and "if they were not culpable, and yet lived according to their God-given conscience, God would be perfectly within His powers and rights to use extra-ordinary means upon the moment of their death to reveal to them how to be saved and to apply the merits of baptism to their desire to be saved" and "we do not judge them, we do not know their eternal fate"

BUT while they're on earth we must say to them: "repent and believe in the Gospel or face eternal hellfire" (well, you don't have to be so blunt necessarily, to each his own style of preaching the gospel... I hear some people even use words)

[Akalyte]

ok I an understand the invincibly ignorant part..But this does not apply to those who attack the church correct?

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Akalyte' post='1051516' date='Aug 27 2006, 06:31 AM']
ok I an understand the invincibly ignorant part..But this does not apply to those who attack the church correct?
[/quote]Why not? Catholics claim Church Infallibility, not Impeccability. What is wrong with pointing out the wrongs in the Catholic Church? Do not the sins of the Church contribute to and strengthen invincible ignorance?

[Norseman82]

I put down "I don't know" because our Church teaches that God, [u]in ways known only to Him[/u], [b]can[/b] lead those [b]who through no fault of their own[/b] are ignorant to the Gospel to faith in Him and salvation. It requires God's grace and is limited to those do not know Christ [b]through no fault of their own[/b]. But the Church still has the [b]obligation[/b] to evangelize all men. (summary of CCC 847-848).

Just because a non-Christian [b]can[/b] be saved under the above conditions does not mean that Hinduism and Buddhism and Islam and whatever pagan religions are just as good as Christianity in general an Catholicism in particular. That is [i]religious indifferentism[/i], and I recall reading somewhere that is a sin.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='Akalyte' post='1051516' date='Aug 27 2006, 08:31 AM']
ok I an understand the invincibly ignorant part..But this does not apply to those who attack the church correct?
[/quote]
I am not sure anyone of us can tell to what extant someone outside the Church really knows the faith. They could be rejecting a bad formulation of it.

[Aloysius]

it is quite possible that absolutely everyone ignorant of the faith is ignorant through their own fault in some way. we do not know, so we must act as if that is true.