heavenseeker Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 vote. my vote is yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franimus Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 ..who said no? 0.o All things are possible through God. There's a ton of quotes to be found regarding us not knowing who will be saved.. Yeah, it's "not the ordinary means of salvation" but nowhere does anything official say "not possible." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 Christ is the ONLY means of salvation, not just the ordinary means of salvation. Anyone who is saved is saved by grace through faith which prospers by good works. But the very first problem with this is that humanity has a fallen nature. Unless that fallen nature is restored to its dignity, a soul cannot (neigh, even moreso, it will not) be in God's presence. It will flee just as our first ancestors did. Baptism restores the soul and instills the first seeds of faith. If the faith is cultivated, one is capable of receiving grace from God and being saved. If none of this happens, one is completely cut off from all grace. God may, in His own wisdom and mercy completely unkown to us restore the nature of someone who is not a Christian because they were raised not to be a Christian. But if this is possible it raises the question: why did God not merely do this to begin with for the entire human race? So it stands to reason that He would only do such a thing to one who He saw as extra-ordinarily righteous in their conscience and action and it was especially impossible for them to have become Christian. But if He were to do this, that person would thus be baptized and a member (maybe not according to human social institutions, I suppose) of the People of God in some imperfect manner. Such a person has had their original fallen nature redeemed by Christ. Only if through that they begin to cultivate a real faith in the real God, a faith which was a supernatural gift of God, could they receive grace from God. Such a person is Christian. No one goes to the Father except by Christ. No one. A non Christian may be saved- only if it is from his own non-christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC4Life Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 My vote is yes. im not a scholar, i dont know everything there is to know about Christianity and Catholicism. but i strongly believe that no one, no matter how knowledgable they are on their religion, has the right to say that anyone can be saved or not. God is the final judge, not me or you. and im not trying to be mean or anything, but thats what i strongly believe. i find it hard to believe that one my best friends, who is Jewish, is not going to be saved because he is not Christian. he dedicates his entire life to God and trys be the best person he can be. Same goes for a lot of my friends who aren't Catholic or even Christian for that matter. Jesus loves all of us no matter what. now, im not saying that their isnt a hell, and im not saying that you have a good chance at heaven if you hate God and go around killing people or anything. but God is the final judge of that. we just dont know what His decision is going to be for any of us. we are all sinners, but we all try, and love Jesus and there is nothing wrong with that. at least thats my input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 No, becuase if there is a non-Catholic who is incievably ignorant, he is actually Catholic without knowing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jswranch Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 [quote name='StThomasMore' post='1047497' date='Aug 21 2006, 02:37 PM'] No, becuase if there is a non-Catholic who is incievably ignorant, he is actually Catholic without knowing so. [/quote] Whoa! Do you mean to tell me the invenciably ignorant are baptized? Do you believe that baptism is not required for entry into the Christian family and then Catholic? If so, taking the logic the next step, a person is Baptized due to ignorance, then non-baptized after learning, then they actually need baptism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 (edited) The Incievably Ignorant are baptised by desire which makes them a part of the Soul of the Church, but not the Body of the Church. If an Incievable Ignorant loses his Incievable Inorance he is no longer baptised by deisre. It would be just like a catechuman deciding he wasn't going to be baptised after all: he would lose his baptism of desire. I do, however, believe that Baptism is required for those who are not baptised by Blood or Desire. Cites for what I'm saying from the Catechism of St. Pius X. [quote] 2 Q. What are the effects of the sacrament of Baptism? A. The sacrament of Baptism confers first sanctifying grace by which original sin is washed away, as well as all actual sin if any such exists; it remits all punishment due on account of such sins; it imprints the character of a Christian; it makes us children of God, members of the Church, and heirs to Paradise, and enables us to receive the other sacraments. Q. State distinctly what is necessary to be a member of the Church? A. To be a member of the Church it is necessary to be baptised, to believe and profess the teaching of Jesus Christ, to participate in the same Sacraments, and to acknowledge the Pope and the other lawful pastors of the Church. Q. In what does the Soul of the Church consist? A. The Soul of the Church consists in her internal and spiritual endowments, that is, faith, hope, charity, the gifts of grace and of the Holy Ghost, together with all the heavenly treasures which are hers through the merits of our Redeemer, Jesus Christ, and of the Saints. Q. In what does the Body of the Church consist? A. The Body of the Church consists in her external and visible aspect, that is, in the association of her members, in her worship, in her teaching-power and in her external rule and government. Q. Can one be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church? A. No, no one can be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic Roman Church, just as no one could be saved from the flood outside the Ark of Noah, which was a figure of the Church. Q. Can one be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church? A. No, no one can be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic Roman Church, just as no one could be saved from the flood outside the Ark of Noah, which was a figure of the Church. Q. Who are they who do not belong to the Communion of Saints? A. Those who are damned do not belong to the Communion of Saints in the other life; and in this life those who belong neither to the body nor to the soul of the Church, that is, those who are in mortal sin, and who are outside the true Church. Q. Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way? A. The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.[/quote] Edited August 22, 2006 by StThomasMore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franimus Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 So this poll needs clarification: How do you define "Christian?" Is a Christian: (a) One who professes to believe in Christ or (b) One who does or would profess belief in Christ, if one had the full knowledge of Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morostheos Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 Saying they can be saved is not the same as saying they will be. btw, the word is invincible, not Incievable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heavenseeker Posted August 22, 2006 Author Share Posted August 22, 2006 the answer is yes, they would be the anonamus christian. if some one is part of another religion, lives out their lif according to it, and at no time dureing their life recognises Jesus as the lord and savior but then accepts him on the judgement day thay can be saved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budge Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 16 YES. [font="Arial Black"]Wow Christianity as a nice optional lifestyle 'choice"[/font] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jswranch Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 [quote name='StThomasMore' post='1047718' date='Aug 21 2006, 07:01 PM'] The Incievably Ignorant are baptised by desire which makes them a part of the Soul of the Church, but not the Body of the Church. If an Incievable Ignorant loses his Incievable Inorance he is no longer baptised by deisre. It would be just like a catechuman deciding he wasn't going to be baptised after all: he would lose his baptism of desire. I do, however, believe that Baptism is required for those who are not baptised by Blood or Desire. Cites for what I'm saying from the Catechism of St. Pius X. [/quote] Ok... I have no problem with this catechism, but I do not see your position supported from the quotes: that your conclusion the invenciably ignorant are baptized and then lose that baptism when they are no longer ignorant. I thought baptism was an irrevocable sacrament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Invincible ignorance does not baptize. There is a slight unknown extra-ordinary possibility that God, who is not bound by the sacraments, would choose to purify a soul of their original sin if they were not Christian through no fault of their own. More likely, He would merely not suffer them any positive damnation if they were not deemed culpable for any actual sin but died in a state of original sin. Original sin is a horrible thing and it can send souls to hell. The disobedience of our first ancestors and our own tendency towards disobedience is no light matter. Only through the shedding of His Only Begotten Son's blood did God deem fit to redeem us from that fallen state. If it took such extreme incarnational and materially manifest measures to redeem us, we ought to understand and hold every human being on earth accountable to the materially manifest means of salvation Christ gave us. God is perfectly within His justice and in His charecter to beaver dam these souls for their sinfulness. We don't deserve salvation in the slightest; not a single one of us. If one experiences the extra-ordinary saving power of God, which would be through the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ of course, through a baptism of desire (the explicit or implicit desire to be a follower of Jesus) then the effects of baptism are applied to them upon death. They are never baptized while on earth, but upon death become members of the Body of CHrist. Same with a baptism by blood. It is an extra-ordinary and unknown means which God MAY use to save souls; most likely those souls upon whom He places the culpability for them not converting to Christ solely upon US and WE will have to answer for that (because someone must answer, and if He sees them as not culpable He will rest the culpability upon the People His Son gained for Him who were supposed to baptize all nations) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farsight one Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 Yes. It is only through God that one can be saved. It is [b]NOT[/b] only through [i]believing in[/i] God that one can be saved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franimus Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 The last two posts are by far the best explained imo.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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