Vatican Billions

[Budge]

While still Catholic I decided to examine Catholic church history, it wasnt a pretty picture whatsoever.


One fact I found interesting was how the Inquisition was used to seize endless properties. I suppose if you were wealthy back then, you better had watched out, else you get accused of "heresy" just to have your lands seized.

[quote]"Are the possessions of heretics turned over to the Inquisitors? - "I speak not, " answers Diana, "for other countries, but the Spanish custom is to confiscate to the royal treasury (fisco regio) all the possession of heretics (omnia bona haereticorum) because our King, who is a pillar of orthodoxy (columna fidel), generously supplies the Inquisitors and their agents with whatever the Holy Office requires." (Inquistitoribus et eorum ministris abunde suppeditat quidquid necessarium est ad conservationem sanctae Inquisionis.)
[size=4]
Thanks to this principle, the Church could obtain vast estates or substantial wealth when prosperous individuals were, as happened often, accused of heresy and condemned - sometimes in collusion with the temporal authorities. [/size]Witness, for instance, the case of Philip II (1556-98). Two-thirds of the income of the Inquisition went to him, the rest of the Roman Catholic institution. [/quote]

[quote]
To make money, the clergy - as already mentioned - forced the faithful to purchase escapes from excommunication. [size=4]Their threats often related to the most trivial matters . For instance, at vintage time the tithers time the tithers forbade, under pain of excommunication, the gathering of gathering of grapes until they could choose the best, so that very often the peasants, owing to frequent delays, saw the ruin of their crops. [/size][/quote]

[quote]
[u]The immense wealth thus collected finally reached such proportions that her economic stranglehold upon all and sundry was no less massive than her spiritual dominion, and almost paralyzed whole countries[/u]. During the reign of Francis I (1515-47), for instance, a mere six hundred abbots, bishops and archbishops controlled so much land throughout France that the income they derived from it equalled that of the French state itself. (4)[/quote]



[url="http://www.cephasministry.com/catholic_vaticans_billions_1.html"]READ VATICAN BILLIONS HERE[/url]

Edited August 20, 2006 by Budge

[CatholicCid]

[quote name='Budge' post='1046556' date='Aug 20 2006, 05:38 AM']
While still Catholic I decided to examine Catholic church history, it wasnt a pretty picture whatsoever.
One fact I found interesting was how the Inquisition was used to seize endless properties. I suppose if you were wealthy back then, you better had watched out, else you get accused of "heresy" just to have your lands seized.
[/quote]

Such a trust worthy site... I best believe everything it says

I like how the actual article is from "Chick Publications"
Vendetta against the Church? No...

Edited August 20, 2006 by CatholicCid

[Justified Saint]

Actually, the Spanish Inquisition barely stayed afloat at times. For much of its history it was very understaffed and frequently had to levy taxes on monasteries just for basic operating finances. Of course there were many abuses, but it was hardly a wealthy enterprise and your sources (and yourself) are an astounding example of ignorance.

Try reading a book for once and think for yourself -- if you can. I really feel sorry for you that you would base so many decisions on such poor and hasty arguments/information -- but the fundamentalist is notoriously reckless and rash. I pray that you will be delievered from your hatred of truth.

Edited August 20, 2006 by Justified Saint

[Norseman82]

Budge,

You point out the Church's wealth. Fair enough. Do you point out also the Church's charitable work?

Do you realize that in Spain, which had the Inquisition that most people think of, the Inquisition was mainly a tool of the for Spanish state to rally against Muslims (and, sadly, Jews)? Remember that Spain did not finally drive out the Muslims until 1492, so the campaign to drive out the Muslims was as fresh in their memories as the Nazi atrocities are today to Jews and other European victims (especially the Poles).

Yes, in times past, the Church had temporal power due to the fact that it was the only institution left standing in western Europe when the Roman Empire collapsed - and nature abhors a vacuum. And during those times the Church amassed great wealth and there were instances of corruption. I don't think any of us here deny that. But the Church is no longer the temporal power it used to be. What's the problem?

Edited August 20, 2006 by Norseman82

[Budge]

[quote]Do you point out also the Church's charitable work?[/quote]

Charity work? You mean those Catholic hospitals that haul in millions in health care profits, or Catholic Charities which has really become more of a government run social work organization?

[quote]But that has been cleaned up now and the Church is not a temporal power. What's the problem?[/quote]
[b]
Cleaned up? You have got to be kidding me.[/b]
[quote]
I met a guy yesterday – a graduate student at UNAM, the national university here – and we got to talking Mexican politics; a topic that invariably leads to a discussion of corruption. So once on that subject, I asked him to explain the apparent paradox of a country that is at once both intensely religious and completely rife with corruption. He had a pretty interesting answer; what [size=5]he said was that Mexico is so corrupt precisely because it is so Catholic. He feels that a church that so easily forgives its followers of their sins – just so long as they go to mass, to confession and drop a little bit of cash in the donations basket – engenders a corrupt congregation. People can feel free to lie, cheat and steal, he says, because they know that their church and their God will forgive them in the end.

Furthermore, he said that the Mexican Catholic church itself has been such a model of corruption here that there’s really no way it could serve as any kind of deterrent.[/size] And because not many people actually read the Bible themselves, he said, the scripture itself doesn’t have nearly as much influence over people’s moral behavior as do the Church’s sermons, which he claims are heavily tilted towards forgiveness of sin rather than following the teachings of Jesus.

Interesting stuff, I thought, and this from a guy who himself claims to be Catholic.

On a related note, I read an article recently that said that in the 1990 national census, 99% of Mexicans declared their reliogion as Catholic. Today, 82% make that same claim.[/quote]

[url="http://www.geocities.com/jonclark500/weblog/2004/09/church-and-corruption.html"]LINK[/url]

The most Catholic countries are the most corrupt, with the most social unrest and there is a reason for that.

Edited August 20, 2006 by Budge

[Eutychus]

[quote]Do you realize that in Spain, which had the Inquisition that most people think of, the Inquisition was mainly a tool of the for Spanish state to rally against Muslims (and, sadly, Jews)? [/quote]

[size=5]BULL![/size]

Legally the Inquisition had NO AUTHORITY to question, torture, discipline, murder, or extort from JEWS OR MUSLIMS.

The ONLY people that fell under their juridiction were ROMAN CATHOLICS suspected of this that or the other thing.

Sheesh, please don't insult our intelligence here with this crud. Who do you think we are ... recent RCIA programmed newbies?

Edited August 20, 2006 by Eutychus

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Budge' post='1046661' date='Aug 20 2006, 11:06 AM']
Charity work? You mean those Catholic hospitals that haul in millions in health care profits, or Catholic Charities which has really become more of a government run social work organization?
[/quote]

Very interesting...I read that in New York Catholic hospitals were the largest provider of healthcare to AIDS patients.

And what about all the help the Church provides unwed mothers do they don't seek abortions?

And just what is wrong about Catholic Charites providing social services to those that need it?

[Justified Saint]

Does Budge not realize that Mexico outlawed and persecuted the Catholic Church in the early 20th century and that the Church and State have had uneasy ties since? But no, lets trust "that guy" over at that blog who met another guy yesterday! Does anyone else see something fishy in Budge's credibility standards? -- yeah there are none

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1046666' date='Aug 20 2006, 11:11 AM']
Who do you think we are ... recent RCIA programmed newbies?
[/quote]

No, just Jack Chick programmed troublemakers...

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1046666' date='Aug 20 2006, 11:11 AM']
[size=7]BULL![/size]

Legally the Inquisition had NO AUTHORITY to question, torture, discipline, murder, or extort from JEWS OR MUSLIMS.

The ONLY people that fell under their juridiction were ROMAN CATHOLICS suspected of this that or the other thing.
[/quote]

The point I was trying to make is that many times in the past the Church and state were mixed. Sometimes the state controlled the Church, sometimes vice-versa.

In Spain, after the Muslims were driven out, Muslims and Jews were told to either convert or leave. Those that converted sometimes practiced Islam or Christianity in secret. It was against these people that the Inquisition was being used against.

So yes, in a sense you are right ; they were targeting Roman Catholics. But my point still stands that it was used as a tool of the state to ensure that vestiges of Islam were stamped out out of concerns for national security.

[Justified Saint]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1046666' date='Aug 20 2006, 09:11 AM']
[size=7]BULL![/size]

Legally the Inquisition had NO AUTHORITY to question, torture, discipline, murder, or extort from JEWS OR MUSLIMS.

The ONLY people that fell under their juridiction were ROMAN CATHOLICS suspected of this that or the other thing.

Sheesh, please don't insult our intelligence here with this crud. Who do you think we are ... recent RCIA programmed newbies?
[/quote]

I am surprised you would adopt such a position -- most anti-Catholics are quick to argue that the Inquisition had no limits to its authority and rigorously persecuted every segment of society.

However, the Inquisition was the climax of a century of racial/cultural intolerance toward Jews and by extension Muslims -- it probably had much less to do with religious intolerance.

[Eutychus]

[quote]Does Budge not realize that Mexico outlawed and persecuted the Catholic Church in the early 20th century and that the Church and State have had uneasy ties since? [/quote]

You mean the Mexicans finally rebelled against the crimes that the Catholic Church had committed against Mexico since Cortez started cutting off the breasts of Indian women, and branding the men on their foreheads? Or the return of the expropriated and stolen wealth of the Catholic Church while the poor peasants literally were eating dirt?

Solid GOLD altars, fourty feet high, in a town were people walked barefoot....palaces for the Bishops, Cardinals, and extates, farms, hacienda's , and endless peasants to wait on them hand and foot? Coiuld THAT be the reason that they were shooting the priests and burning the monestaries?

[img]http://www.arrakeen.ch/america/CIMG9220.JPG[/img]

[Budge]

[quote]Does Budge not realize that Mexico outlawed and persecuted the Catholic Church in the early 20th century and that the Church and State have had uneasy ties since?[/quote]

So what in every Catholic dominated country, they have periods of rebellion against the oppression...this is why they all have a history of governmental turmoil as they usually run for brief periods over to the socialists and communists.

[img]http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/photo/pope/dignitaries/PHO-2908_thumb.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.noticias-oax.com.mx/images/upload/08D05141.jpg[/img]

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1046681' date='Aug 20 2006, 11:35 AM']
You mean the Mexicans finally rebelled against the crimes that the Catholic Church had committed against Mexico since Cortez started cutting off the breasts of Indian women, and branding the men on their foreheads? [/quote]

And do you realize it was due to that Horrible Catholic Cortez's conquering of Mexico that the pagan practice of offering up babies in sacrifice was ended?

[Justified Saint]

Same tactics again. Once their original agruments are refuted its a series of misdirections and deflections. "Oh well that's because of Cortez" etc., etc., an infinitum and ad nauseam. Budge and Euty simply refuse to hold themselves accountable.

[Norseman82]

It's threads like these that make me look for a "grasping for straws" smilie....