How Many Masses Does It take to Get out of Purgatory?

[Eutychus]

[quote][u]We don't depend on the cloth. In wearing the scapular We depend on Mary and her prayers and intercesion.[/u] We depend on her relationship with her son and her power, just as seen in Cana when she asked Jesus to do something when they ran out of wine. The Cloth is just the outward sign of the devotion. And we by no means worship the scapular- that would be idolatry, so your entire argument is false. [/quote]

OK then, why WEAR IT?

IF YOU DON"T THINK the little square of wool has MOXIE POWER?
[i]
{ note, you cannot have it both ways, there are people here, at least two of them, with brains in ON MODE now....}[/i]

[Jesuspaidtheprice]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1047171' date='Aug 21 2006, 11:43 AM']
OK then, why WEAR IT?

IF YOU DON"T THINK the little square of wool has MOXIE POWER?
[i]
{ note, you cannot have it both ways, there are people here, at least two of them, with brains in ON MODE now....}[/i]
[/quote]

I would assume for the same reason you put a fish on your bumper. Signs have meaning.

[Aloysius]

This is just like any donation. If a devout poor Catholic donated all of their money to the Church to have masses said for the repose of their soul, that would be very meritorious. If a rich Catholic gave 10% of his money to have a billion masses said for him (assuming he was that rich) it would merit him about 1/10 of how much that poor Catholic merited.

The donation to the Church is a good work: giving money so that the Church can carry out its mission and charitable works. It makes sense that many would donate to churches in India to support the missionary work there, that's where it's needed right? But it doesn't matter if one mass is said in your honor or one thousand masses are said in your honor; both are equivalent to Christ dying in your honor and Christ died only once for everyone.

[CatholicCid]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1047171' date='Aug 21 2006, 09:43 AM']
OK then, why WEAR IT?

IF YOU DON"T THINK the little square of wool has MOXIE POWER?
[i]
{ note, you cannot have it both ways, there are people here, at least two of them, with brains in ON MODE now....}[/i]
[/quote]

It is wierd isn't it? You quoted the post, gave it some underlined, and yet didn't read it all.

[u]We don't depend on the cloth. In wearing the scapular We depend on Mary and her prayers and intercesion.[/u] We depend on her relationship with her son and her power, just as seen in Cana when she asked Jesus to do something when they ran out of wine. [b]The Cloth is just the outward sign of the devotion.[/b] And we by no means worship the scapular- that would be idolatry, so your entire argument is false.

"Ok then, (if you don't depend on the cloth) why wear it"
[i]The Cloth is just the outward sign of the devotion.[/i]

It seems to work in question format

[Eutychus]

[quote] This is just like any donation. If a devout poor Catholic donated all of their money to the Church to have masses said for the repose of their soul, that would be very meritorious. If a rich Catholic gave 10% of his money to have a billion masses said for him (assuming he was that rich) it would merit him about 1/10 of how much that poor Catholic merited.[/quote]

And WHAT DOCUMENT can you link me to that OFFICIALLY supports what you just claimed?

{ I won't hold my breath here.... }

--------------------------------------------------------

[quote]
We don't depend on the cloth. In wearing the scapular We depend on Mary and her prayers and intercesion.[/quote]

SO...let me get this straight here...you say the CLOTH ITSELF means absolutely NOTHING...right?
So, the status of the sinner is EXACTLY THE SAME in purgetory IF HE/SHE IS *OR* IS NOT WEARING the scapular at the time of death....right? The duration of time in Purgatory is NOT modified whatsoever either way, I don't want to misquote you here...

Please put that in writing for me, I want the other Catholics to have a go at that one...

Edited August 21, 2006 by Eutychus

[Budge]

[quote]If a devout poor Catholic donated all of their money to the Church to have masses said for the repose of their soul[/quote]

Actually that would be stupid if they had children to take care of and didnt pay their rent or buy food to get Masses instead.

Any church that would hit a poor person up, [most poor people being with out expendable income], so they could "pay" their way out of Purgatory is messed up.

Rome is lying to millions saying they can BUY their SALVATION.

Truly SICK!

[quote]We depend on Mary [/quote]

Thats your problem in a nutshell.

Mary cant get anyone to heaven.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1047250' date='Aug 21 2006, 12:49 PM']
And WHAT DOCUMENT can you link me to that OFFICIALLY supports what you just claimed?

[/quote]

Try: [url="http://www.awmach.org"]http://www.awmach.org[/url] then look for Luke 21:1-4.

A book called THE BIBLE....

[uruviel]

[quote name='OLAM Dad' post='1046591' date='Aug 20 2006, 08:05 AM']
How many Masses does it take to get out of Purgatory?

I'm not sure, Budge, but if I was you I would worry about getting there first.
[/quote]

great point olamdad!!

[curtins]

[quote] SO...let me get this straight here...you say the CLOTH ITSELF means absolutely NOTHING...right?
So, the status of the sinner is EXACTLY THE SAME in purgetory IF HE/SHE IS *OR* IS NOT WEARING the scapular at the time of death....right? The duration of time in Purgatory is NOT modified whatsoever either way, I don't want to misquote you here... [/quote]


I've discovered a new protestant 'doctrine' or belief, quite similar to sola scriptura (or whatever you call it). Its called misquota da catholica.

I never said the cloth has absolutly no meaning. The cloth is the outward sign of the devotion. If someone is wearing the cloth it means they're practicing the devotion. Theres much more to it than wearing a piece of wool. Its not a get out of jail free card so if I wear this I can do anything I want and will get of purgatory on the next saturday anyways. The scapular is simply a devotion to the Blessed Mother in which we implore her help for us here on earth and especially when we die. If someone is living the devotion and living according to Christ then the scapular has much meaning and importance behind it. If they are simply using it thinking it a free pass to heaven and doing whatever they want, then at best they are profaning a sacred devotion given to us by the Mother of God.

[quote]Mary cant get anyone to heaven.[/quote]

Yes, Budge, the queen of heaven can bring the Savior into the world, remain a virgin, remain sinless yet she cannot pray for us on earth or those in purgatory by exercising the unique and direct relationship she has with her son. That makes complete sense. (that was sarcasm in case you missed it)

and again you take my quote out of context and make it seem like we worship Mary and depend soley on her.

[quote] Thats your problem in a nutshell.[/quote]

Ahhh and all of this Church corruption, hindu masses, and the evil dictatorship of Rome which you keep talking about has come about because of devotion to Mary! And the way the evil male dominated hierarchy of the church screwed EVERYTHING up from what Christ intended was all due to Mary! Ok now I get it.

Your Problem in a nutshell: Thinking you know better than God.

Edited August 21, 2006 by curtins

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Budge' post='1047262' date='Aug 21 2006, 01:50 PM']
Actually that would be stupid if they had children to take care of and didnt pay their rent or buy food to get Masses instead.

Any church that would hit a poor person up, [most poor people being with out expendable income], so they could "pay" their way out of Purgatory is messed up.

Rome is lying to millions saying they can BUY their SALVATION.

Truly SICK!

Thats your problem in a nutshell.

Mary cant get anyone to heaven.[/quote]
Careful with your accusations: ([url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/mark/mark12.htm#v41"]link[/url])
[quote name='Mark 12:41-44']He sat down opposite the treasury and observed how the crowd put money into the treasury. Many rich people put in large sums. A poor widow also came and put in two small coins worth a few cents. Calling his disciples to himself, he said to them, "Amen, I say to you, this poor widow put in more than all the other contributors to the treasury. For they have all contributed from their surplus wealth, but she, from her poverty, has contributed all she had, her whole livelihood."[/quote]It sounds as if you are being critical of Our Lord, who explains that the widow contributed "[b]her whole livelihood[/b]." She's certainly not offering from her surplus, as the rich people in the parable. If the Gospel of Budge were true, Our Lord would certainly have rejected her offering.

Anyway, Budge, haven't you been here long enough to know the difference between the punishment of purgatory and the question of salvation? For those in purgatory, there is no question of whether they will be saved. So, how can you claim that someone is buying their salvation? Are you uninformed or are you knowingly bearing false witness against us? I think that it's time for you to move beyond your cartoonish mis-characterizations of the Catholic Faith. Leave that to Jack Chick.

Finally, if you think that the doctrine of purgatory is a "money maker" for the Catholic Church, you're really not in touch with reality. If you were looking for mammon-focused churches, do a little searching, and you might uncover a few fundamentalist churches that are adamant about 10% tithing among their members. A simple review of clergy salaries will reveal where someone can make money by being a man (or woman) of the cloth. It ain't the Catholic Church, though.

[Aloysius]

I didn't say that they should do that. I'm saying it's the difference between giving all one is able to give or just giving a little bit. If you give all you are able to give, it is more meritorious than if you only give a little bit of what you are able. The Church has consistently taught proportionality when it comes to donations, following the instructions of Her Lord in the Holy Gospel According to St. Luke.

Rome consistently has condemned the sin of simony in Councils and Encyclicals. There's your official document that proves that this is nothing more than a donation to the Church; any priest who did it as if it were payment for masses or payment for heaven would have so many ancient anathemas covering him he'd be in purgatory till the end of time if he even made it there. And the Church has always viewed donations in that proportional way. The law of Tithes has always said to give at least 10%, accross the board rich and poor alike, to charity/church. The more you are able to give according to your means, the more of a good work it is. This is rooted in the Bible and is clearly taught by the Church.

Find me anywhere the Church has said #1 that you can buy masses and #2 that the more masses which specificially mention your name the sooner you get out of purgatory and I'll give you all I am able to give you according to my means.

[curtins]

Mr. Owl- How many licks does it take to get out of Pergatory?

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='curtins' post='1047339' date='Aug 21 2006, 02:20 PM']
Mr. Owl- How many licks does it take to get out of Pergatory?[/quote]
Ah-one, ah-two, ah-three, .... ah-fifty two, ah-fifty--CRUNCH!

52 licks.

[thessalonian]

There is infinite grace involved in each Mass and so if the soul in purgatory is open to that grace perfectly, then it will only take one. Otherwise it could take more. That's up to God. That depends on the state of the purity of the soul. For "Nothing unclean shall enter".

[Eutychus]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1047337' date='Aug 21 2006, 11:19 AM']


Rome consistently has condemned the sin of simony in Councils and Encyclicals.
[/quote]

She had too, for Simony was THE WAY the system was operated under! Selling of office was pretty much the NORM for 700 years.