Hindu Masses are really happening...

[stbernardLT]

I just realized that you got some of this from the Catholic Family News. Its funny because those people would probably be harsher than us towards you. I guess it doesn't matter if it is far right or far left as long as it is heretical and schismatic it is good to go.

[Aloysius]

note that the aversion to the topic you saw in posts above is the exact same tactic being used by Eutychus and Budge in other threads. avert the topic and give an emotional appeal.

centuries ago the Catholic Church nearly converted the entire Chinese Empire. The Jesuits got into the chinese texts, delved into chinese culture, and came to understand it inside and out. They determined that what could seemingly be translated in the west as "ancestor worship" was, in fact, no worship at all. The Pope didn't listen to them, instead he forbid the practice. This would be akin to forbidding the irish from having wakes. The Emporer therefore did not convert, the population therefore did not convert, and everyone came back a loser because the Pope back then acted like Budge and Eutychus are acting right now, and it's not with the Spirit of Christ but rather with the Spirit of Pride and ethnocentrism.

I suspect this likely is the same situation (I could be wrong, we should each study respectable books on the subject and come back when we are actually prepared for a discussion, internet articals are not so reliable, I am going to delve through all my texts on hinduism tonight and hit up a couple hindu sources online to double check this artical's "translation" of the sign of peace here) with the sign of peace. More likely than not this is the equivalent of saying "my spirit honors your spirit" even if the same words are used in the hindu language in other contexts.

We do not abolish cultures: we crown them with Christ. There is no need to abolish asian culture and replace it with european culture, or american culture, or even with first century jewish culture. Convert them to christ. [b]Praise the unknown gods as foreshadowing Christ and condemn the particularities which obscure their vision from Him.[/b]

If any of these are actually being used in devotion to the hindu religion, that is appalling and should be stopped. But I will not take one measly internet artical with a few pictures that float around conspiracy circles because they can appear to have a bad light.

So what needs to be sorted out in this issue:

The meaning of "Namaste", and whether it is the proper liturgical translation for "Pax Christi" "Et cum Spiritu Tuo"

Whether this namaste that supposedly uses the word "god" uses, in fact, the same word god that would be used to describe the One True God.

Whether this statement: “we are united with God, the universe, and with our fellow human beings in this one gesture called arati” does or does not in the context of the language mean one with or, in the more Chrisitan and correct sense, [i]united[/i] with (because if it is united, then it is a correct statement, if it attempts to blur the individuality of persons and the hierarchy of creation, then it is incorrect)

In the developement of Christian worship, there was a question of using the word "Kyrie" in Greek to refer to the Lord Jesus since the same word also refered to 'lords' among other gods. The issue was settled, and to this day there is an entire section of the mass which first uses the word "Kyrie" then clarifies it as "Christe" and then reminds us that this 'Christe' is the Kyrie with a final Kyrie.

What would you have the indians do if their word for "lord" is "krishna"? Shall they not be afforded the priveledge of calling our Blessed Savior "lord" in their native tongue? Or would you have them assume the english word "lord" because it is the official language of the Holy Protestant Invisible Union of Churches?

[thessalonian]

Guess how New Gunea was converted? By the Eucharist. You see they were canabals. They easily understood the Eucharist. Of course they had to give up their canabalism. St. Francis Xavier was one of the greatest evangelists ever. He quickly learned the language of the people and then the culture. Then he used his knowledge to convert them to Christ. This is the method of Acts 17. Redeeming cultures.

Blessings

[DAF]

Eutychus, if you want to make the Church look bad, I would reccommend you use a religious order with a little more credability than the Jesuits.
Also, all these articles you're posting are the exceptions, certainly not the rule. And most of them aren't even exceptions, they just as wrong to us as they are to you.
[quote]so long as it answers to "father" and wears a silken dress?[/quote]
You're blinded by your prejudice.

[chris]

I got a few questions for Budge and for all these other people here harping at the church.


Why do you care? You arent Catholic...So whats up with you?

Why doesnt all this stuff matter to you?

What are you wanting to find in us?

What are you really accusing us of?

Why are you accusing?

Christians are supposed to be Christ like, is trying to take old new to us and make it look like we are dumb geniuses what Christ would do?

You arent ministering your trying to support a conspiracy theory of a
2000 year old Church. Claiming that we are craker worshiping mislead sons of the whore of babylon. But remeber your church came from ours. Your leaders came from our church. So if were are mislead sinners then what are you?

Honestly, what the heck are you trying to find here?

If not what then who are you trying to find?

and last but not least
------------------------------

What in world is your major malfunction?

Edited August 17, 2006 by Convert4888

[thessalonian]

Convert4888,

Isn't it obvious they are protestants even though they deny they are :.

[chris]

None the less I would like these questions answered. If they can't answer them then there is absolute no reason for them to be here unless they are here peacfully. But, since budge has been here half the time there is no peace, we are always defending ourselves from rude, ridiculous confrontations thats are not even close to being true.

I would hate to be the Church that they are representing because, they aren't doing so hot.

So, whats your answer gentlemen?

Edited August 18, 2006 by Convert4888

[Budge]

[quote]Whether this statement: “we are united with God, the universe, and with our fellow human beings in this one gesture called arati”[u] [i]does or does not in the context of the language mean one with or, in the more Chrisitan and correct sense[/i][/u], [b]united with (because if it is united, then it is a correct statement, if it attempts to blur the individuality of persons and the hierarchy of creation, then it is incorrect[/b])[/quote]
[font="Arial Black"]

[img]http://www.byers.com/spatialage/newsandevents/newsletter/Feb03/man_head_spinning.gif[/img]



My head is spinning, WHAT DOES THIS EVEN MEAN?[/font][size=5]




[quote]
Come on folks!

Buck it UP HERE, stand tall, be REAL men and women of God!

Call it for what it is, blatant apostacy of the worst sort.

idontknow.gif Do I hear an AMEN here anywhere?? idontknow.gif
[/quote]

That would be too simple.

They have to write convoluted paragraphs to excuse the sin of breaking the first commandment.

Very sad. So many here dont even have the basics down of what it means to be a Christian.

[chris]

budge your a hot talker...I'm impressed. But, you cant even answer a few questions? Instead of accusing us of "writing convoluted paragraphs to excuse the sin of breaking the first commandment."

Your quite rude for a person who thinks he/she knows "what it means to be a Christian."

Remeber those are all your quotes.

Oh, and by the way who on Heaven and Earth gave your the power to accuse us of other god worhsip or whether or not we know what a Christian is. You dont have any power on earth or in heaven to even come close to making that judgement.

Edited August 18, 2006 by Convert4888

[Budge]

[quote]
Oh, and by the way who on Heaven and Earth gave your the power to accuse us of other god worhsip or whether or not we know what a Christian is. You dont have any power on earth or in heaven to even come close to making that judgement.[/quote]

So you think its ok they did worship to Shiva during this Mass?

Im not standing on my power, Im standing on Gods Word which says...
[size=5][font="Franklin Gothic Medium"]
Exd 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.[/font][/size]

[chris]

you can prove without a shadow a doubt that the article you posted says that they utilized the worship of hindu gods during the mass?
and you were there at the mass so you can certifiably state that everything there besides cultural dance was breaking the 2nd Commandment?

you have never really answered none of my questions. You have just made nothing but, excuses.

[DAF]

Really though, what are your motives? Assuming you got us out of the Church, where would we go from there? To make up a religion with our trusty Bibles? Seems like that route's kind of tired, isn't there anything else we can do?

[Socrates]

So every time some "Catholic" somewhere in the world does something blatantly contrary and opposed to Catholic teaching, this is supposed to mean the Catholic Church is wrong, and we should all go out and join Budge and Eutychus' congregation?

I suppose everytime a "Fundamentalist" or "Evangelical" Christian does something wacky (I mean other than Budge and Eut's postings, of course), we should post it to discredit their religion! (Westboro Baptists, anyone?)

Edited August 18, 2006 by Socrates

[Eutychus]

[quote] centuries ago the Catholic Church nearly converted the entire Chinese Empire. The Jesuits got into the chinese texts, delved into chinese culture, and came to understand it inside and out. They determined that what could seemingly be translated in the west as "ancestor worship" was, in fact, no worship at all. The Pope didn't listen to them, instead he forbid the practice. This would be akin to forbidding the irish from having wakes. The Emporer therefore did not convert, the population therefore did not convert, and everyone came back a loser because the Pope back then acted like Budge and Eutychus are acting right now, and it's not with the Spirit of Christ but rather with the Spirit of Pride and ethnocentrism.[/quote]

Horsehockey.

Right now, today, this afternoon, there are 100,000,000 evangelical/pentecostal chinese REAL CHRISTIANS.

They do NOT have ancestor worship, in fact, the Korean's are sending MISSIONARIES to Europe, the bastion of Roman Catholicism, to teach the humanist/pagan/european/lapsed Catholics CHRISTIANITY. They are sending out MORE missionaries than the rest of the world combined, into Africa, Asia, and Muslim nations. They are DOING what the rest of us talk about.

Sheesh. The nonsense you people believe staggers the imagination. Honestly.

Christ and Christianity is the same NOW, as THEN, and FOREVER. Any cultural adaptations tend to DILUTE the faith, not enhance it. Including OURS here in the USA I might add.

[url="http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/003/16.28.html"]http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/003/16.28.html[/url]

[quote]Really though, what are your motives? [u]Assuming you got us out of the Church, where would we go from there? [/u] [/quote]

That SAME QUESTION is the one that every Roman Catholic becoming merely "Christian" has to answer.

Lets see here...

40% of all the people in Guatamala are EX Roman Catholics.....

30% of all the people in Brazil are EX Roman Catholics....

22% of all the people in Chile are EX Roman Catholics...

Here in the USA, 20% of all hispanics are now EX Roman Catholics...

Hmmm, is there a pattern here? AHA! Apparently there ARE places that EX Roman Catholics go, are happy with, and find perfectly acceptable replacements, no, an improvement.

Imagine that!

So, the question isn't one YOU are alone in asking, each one of us had to cross that Tiber and swim to a safer shore with fewer sharks.

Edited August 18, 2006 by Eutychus

[Aloysius]

Aha.... so there should be no culture whatsoever... just christianity? absurd.

what those who never bothered to understand the practices and beliefs of the people there call "ancestor worship" is really ceremonies of remembrance. it would be just like telling the irish not to have wakes. do you think irish wakes "dilute" christianity?

again your numbers prove nothing. there are plenty of people going from each side to the other side. AND you basically make the assumption that all these ex-Catholics are entering your definition of "vibrant christian churches". they are not. a lot of these ex-catholics are ex-catholics because they don't like that the Church condemns marxism and liberation theology so they find a "christian" church in which they are free to reduce Christ's entire message down to class warfare. quality, not quantity, is key.

If it's a numbers game: we're still beating you in worldwide adherents and churches. If it's a numbers game: we're still beating you in age. If it's a numbers game: you're entire protestant revolution stole exactly as many Catholics in the sixteenth century as were gained in Latin America in the same century. If it's a numbers game: we were evangelizing before there ever even existed one church with doctrines remotely similar to the modern individualism preached by your brand of christianity.

but it's not a numbers game. attack us on beliefs. show why what you believe about the bible is the right thing to believe about the bible and why our way is wrong... not with numbers and emotional appeals but with LOGIC. You could spread non-denomination vibrant "christian" communities all around the world; but if what these communities believed was not what Christ wanted them to believe it would be for nothing.

Christ came as the Incarnate God. To personalize God. To reveal God. To make Him intimately known to all who desired to know Him with a certitude of faith and reason. He did not come to keep what was absolutely true about Him a mystery. He came to reveal alot.

Again: I ask you: what would you have the indians translate the word "lord" into other than "krishna"? Why cannot they use a greeting that, in their culture, connotates "my spirit honors your spirit"? Why should they not be allowed to place eight symbolic flowers in a vase?

Destroying cultures is not what Christianity is meant to do. It's not what St. Paul did. It's not what any of the Apostles did. It is, in fact, something evil, racist, ethnocentric, and sinful.

Condemn and destroy everything that blocks the people's understanding of Christ. Built up, crown, exalt, and glorify by Christ everything in a culture that is good about it.

And again, if anything was going on in which they were worshiping shiva (the priest made it clear he did not intend to honor shiva at all) that is to be condemned and rooted out. But if they were bringing their culture to Jesus then that is something beautiful and it is dispicable that anyone would attack it in ethnocentric fear disguised as concern against idolatry.

by the way, to clear up my "convoluted paragraph"

there is a Christian idea of union with God, union with the universe, union within the Body of Christ and within the entire human family.

the eastern idea is more of a "oneness" in which everything is just a manifestation of the one ultimate reality.

So it is very important that the word "unity" be used rather than "oneness"... I would assume, however I am not an expert in their language, culture, or religion and as such am not in a position to make that absolute statement... that's why I said we should both do some honest scholarly studying. The important thing would be that they understand that it is a communion in which unique individual human beings are united with, but not the same as, all of creation and God Himself.

and yes, it is not simple: you're talking about cultural clash... you cannot expect to understand what a culture means by any of its statemetns by reading an artical tirading against their idolatries. you have to get deep into the language, the connotations, understand the gheist of the culture.