Abortion, Legal Or Illegal

[musturde]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1892457' date='Jun 16 2009, 02:14 AM']That implies that the current procedure is "safe."[/quote]

No, it doesn't. I didn't specify that the current procedure was safe or unsafe. All you can imply out of my statement is that the "less" legal procedure (probably performed at some random back-alley) would be unsafe.

However, what I meant to say was that an illegal abortion might be less safe.
But you already knew that .

Edited June 16, 2009 by musturde

[Resurrexi]

Maybe if it's less safe women with common sense won't try to have it done to them.

[Angel*Star]

No doubt about it. Abortion should be illegal. Any intelligent country would not kill its future. That being said, I believe we need to work on changing hearts so the law really does not matter. However, laws do influence people. NOW, nothing will change if we think contraception is okay. Basically we don't want to be burdened with children. Let me tell you: children are not a burden (not even the one who is crying upstairs and who will make me get off Phatmass in less than one minute!) Children are a blessing and should be cherished. Each act must be one of love not lust. Our attitudes of sex need to change. It is a gift. Contraception is a major step toward abortion, divorce, etc. Contraception is abortion when the pill us used. I know most of this is discussed in another thread, but it really does make a difference. Women are to be cherished. As St. Paul said in Ephisians, Wives be submissive to your husbands. Husbands love your wives as Christ loved the Church. Which one of you men would die for your wives as Christ died for His church? What woman wouldn't want to be submissive to a man who would seriously die for her? If love was this great, contraception and abortion would not be issues. I must get off. My blessings call.

[Patrick]

(Random sidenote)

What I find confusing is how people even still try to argue that the fetus (or earlier) is the mother's tissue, and therefore she can do what she wants with it.

It's got different genes than the mother. It is most certainly (even from a scientific standpoint) not the mother's tissue.

[Winchester]

[quote name='musturde' post='1892453' date='Jun 16 2009, 02:10 AM']You mean like prohibition in the 1920s?
How about something more recent. When's the last time you or someone you know downloaded an mp3 illegally? I could very easily put Massmatics on a torrent site right now.[/quote]
I mean, like abortion, divorce, pornography, etcetera. Whenever you legalize a vice (and drinking is not a vice--God drinks, if you remember), it becomes morally acceptable.

People steal, whether it's legal or not. If you believe a nation's laws don't greatly affect social norms, then I really don't know how to argue with you--it's as if you've said the sky isn't blue. No, it doesn't happen overnight--prohibition didn't go for any amount of time, and you're not looking at the number of people who adhered to it, just the sensational resistance. Either way, it was from a shrill counter culture fighting thousands of years of drinking.

People follow. That's why God calls them sheep (among more compassionate reasons), and the government is one of the biggest things going. It's not 100%, but to deny it altogether is bizarre.

Further, you don't waste time changing people's minds about something before you enact a just law. Laws are good or bad according to how jusdt they are, not how effective.

[Winchester]

[quote name='musturde' post='1892453' date='Jun 16 2009, 02:10 AM']It is better to change people's hearts first. You can put laws on people, but outlawing something so common will not stop it.[/quote]
Apart from being pragmatic, it's asinine to endorse murder with an unjust law until we've changed people's hearts. Do you honestly believe that there's not a single person obtaining an abortion that would not do it were it illegal?

Laws against rape and murder don't "stop" those activities, either. By your logic, we should toss out those laws.

There's no rule against doing both. In fact, making it illegal will help convince people it's wrong.

[Didacus]

I have no problems with abortion being legal as long as the procedure can be made safe for the baby.

[musturde]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1892931' date='Jun 16 2009, 08:49 AM']I mean, like abortion, divorce, pornography, etcetera. Whenever you legalize a vice (and drinking is not a vice--God drinks, if you remember), it becomes morally acceptable.[/quote]
You have to also remember that many people advocating the pro-choice movement don't associate abortion with "vice".


[quote]People steal, whether it's legal or not. If you believe a nation's laws don't greatly affect social norms, then I really don't know how to argue with you--it's as if you've said the sky isn't blue.[/quote]
I believe that. However, you know that abortion is completely different though. People are willing to fight for the "right" to have abortions legally. It's not like outlawing incest.

[quote]No, it doesn't happen overnight--prohibition didn't go for any amount of time, and you're not looking at the number of people who adhered to it, just the sensational resistance. Either way, it was from a shrill counter culture fighting thousands of years of drinking.[/quote]
What I'm looking at is the amount of crime the law created. Outlawing abortion will also create a huge amount of crime.

[quote]People follow. That's why God calls them sheep (among more compassionate reasons), and the government is one of the biggest things going. It's not 100%, but to deny it altogether is bizarre.[/quote]

[quote]Further, you don't waste time changing people's minds about something before you enact a just law. Laws are good or bad according to how jusdt they are, not how effective.[/quote]
The problem here is when abortions are made illegal and a majority of the populace does not agree with this law, the law can be overthrown in a couple of years. This is not a dictatorship. You must change people's hearts before outlawing abortion.

Besides, outlawing abortions will not stop people from having them. Egypt is a prime example.

Edited June 16, 2009 by musturde

[musturde]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1892933' date='Jun 16 2009, 08:53 AM']Apart from being pragmatic, it's asinine to endorse murder with an unjust law until we've changed people's hearts. Do you honestly believe that there's not a single person obtaining an abortion that would not do it were it illegal?[/quote]
I'm sure there are some that won't. I also believe there will be a popular black market for abortions.


[quote]Laws against rape and murder don't "stop" those activities, either. By your logic, we should toss out those laws.[/quote]
Yes, but "rape" and "murder" are not accepted by a majority of society.


[quote]There's no rule against doing both. In fact, making it illegal will help convince people it's wrong.[/quote]
No, making it illegal will only outrage the people who fight to keep it legal. Abortion is legal now but you're not convinced that it's right. You cannot change people's minds simply by changing laws. The heart must be changed first.

Edited June 16, 2009 by musturde

[Two Hearts]

Unfortunately, if abortion is illegal, then more babies will born into situation where they are not wanted and abused/neglected and so on. I realize this is a very general statement and do not mean it to be [i]the [/i]answer....but if society is going to ban a woman's right to choose what is best for her and her unborn child, then we must have provisions for their complete and loving care.

What troubles me about the pro-life debate is that many pro-lifers support the death penalty and yet are blind to the connection that a life is a life.

I voted for Obama b/c there was more at stake in our country and no one else running could even come close to making the needed changes.

I would not have an abortion and would try to dissuade friend from having one....have also provided child care so a friend would choose life rather than terminate a pregnancy.

In my heart it is not a cut and dry issue. I wish it was as it would be so much easier.

Now, you can tear me apart all you like. Doesn't matter...this is a place where we can have our say.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Two Hearts

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Two Hearts' post='1893151' date='Jun 16 2009, 05:57 PM']Unfortunately, if abortion is illegal, then more babies will born into situation where they are not wanted and abused/neglected and so on. I realize this is a very general statement and do not mean it to be [i]the [/i]answer....but if society is going to ban a woman's right to choose what is best for her and her unborn child, then we must have provisions for their complete and loving care.[/quote]
I absolutely agree that there should be more support for pregnant women and women with young children. However, it's not an either/or issue. We don't have to choose between fighting to make abortion illegal & educating & supporting women in these situations, nor should we, IMHO. We should do both, and many pro-lifers do.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Two Hearts' post='1893151' date='Jun 16 2009, 11:57 AM']What troubles me about the pro-life debate is that many pro-lifers support the death penalty and yet are blind to the connection that a life is a life.[/quote]

I follow John Paul's teaching, conception to a natural death, and am an outspoken opponent of the death penalty. I volunteered my time on 8 death penalty appeals. The Church however allows for the death penalty in very rare circumstances, while abortion is an infallible teaching. That's one of those things you have to believe in to be in communion with the church.

[Patrick]

Another thing that can be done, and this isn't for everyone or every circumstance, but we have a (non-Christian) friend who has agreed carry the baby to term and to let us adopt her baby instead of aborting it, as a last resort, should the situation ever arise.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Patrick' post='1893472' date='Jun 16 2009, 10:28 PM']Another thing that can be done, and this isn't for everyone or every circumstance, but we have a (non-Christian) friend who has agreed carry the baby to term and to let us adopt her baby instead of aborting it, as a last resort, should the situation ever arise.[/quote]
That's actually something I've thought about. If I ever have a friend in that situation, I would offer to help as possible, or adopt if possible. Or introduce her to someone wanting to adopt.

[PeteWaldo]

[quote name='FreeSoul' post='564' date='Jul 3 2003, 05:09 PM']I just loooooooove to be the devil' advocate.

In Canada abortion has no law, as the supreme court struck the old one down as unconstitutional a while back.[/quote]

That's interesting since English common law is the basis of Canadian law as well as U.S. law. Black's is still used as reference in U.S. jurisprudence.
[url="http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=UTF-8&sado=1&fr=yfp-t-501&p=black%27s+law+book&SpellState=n-970988752_q-uQULV4Z9vw4pNBaGIk3DIAAAAA%40%40&fr2=sp-top"]http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=UTF-8&am...&fr2=sp-top[/url]
Blacks defined a "person" at conception, long before we even knew what we know now about the development of a person being determined through that person's DNA, from that moment, including even some adult diseases being mapped in.

Since a child is exactly that, at any stage of development, that child is guaranteed under our constitution the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Nobody, including the mother, has the right to take away that right, much less by killing another individual to avoid a few months of inconvenience.

Roe v Wade is, simply put, unconstitutional.
Norma McCorvey, who was "Jane Roe" of Roe vs. Wade, and Sandra Cano who was "Mary Doe" in Doe vs. Bolton which was a companion case, have both filed motions in Federal court to set aside the landmark U.S. Supreme Court's 1973 ruling in their cases. Indeed Sandra Cano didn't even know what was being done at the time.

For misguided men in the pro-death camp that believe they are fighting for womens rights, the majority of women are pro-life.
[url="http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0geu.ZbAjlKiXQAFbVXNyoA?p=majority+of+women+are+pro+life&y=Search&fr=yfp-t-501&fr2=sb-top&sao=1"]http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0geu....b-top&sao=1[/url]

As a result of Roe v Wade abortion is used as birth control for some women.
Obama voted in favor of "live birth abortion" as an Illinois legislator, that is, killing a baby that is accidentally born live during an abortion.
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPF1FhCMPuQ"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPF1FhCMPuQ[/url]

Now he favors manufacturing children to be dismembered in infant chop shops for fetal stem cell experimentation, leaving the ethical and moral considerations of it, up to the scientific community.

Obama and the democrat congress support restoration of partial-birth abortion:
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_W75zh1j2I"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_W75zh1j2I[/url]

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[url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/3847319.stm"]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/3847319.stm[/url]

Edited June 17, 2009 by PeteWaldo