avemaria40 Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 (edited) abortion should be illegal. Women have a choice, but the child should have the right to live. And as for the "it's my body" argument, here's what i say. It's illegal to possess drugs, it's illegal to blow urself up, it's illegal to commit suicide, it's illegal to drink and drive, and rape's illegal, so yeah, the gov't does have a right to tell u wat 2 do w/ur body. However, only the doctors who perform it should be held for it, but the women who get the abortion feel it's the only way out, for the most part that is. They are told parenting is a burden and that adoption is too unpredictable. I think that ppl should put as much attention at places like Birthright, Feminists for Life, and Catholic Charities as they do Planned Parenthood and NARAL b4 we make abortion illegal so that way women know that they have other choices, also, it wouldn't hurt to make sure we all have Safe Haven Laws and that ppl know about them Edited September 9, 2005 by avemaria40 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didacus Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 Here's something I found on BBC website (mods, delete if inappropriate): [quote]Potential human, potential rights Ultrasound Some people say that the foetus has the right to life because it is a 'potential human being'. The 'potential human being' argument gives the right to life to the unborn from the very earliest stage of development - the moment when the egg is fertilised. This argument renders irrelevant any concerns about what sort of being the foetus is at any particular stage of its development. The foetus is a potential human being, but... There is no doubt that a fertilised egg is a potential human being since, if the pregnancy runs its full course, it will be born as a human baby; the question is whether being a potential human being gives the foetus any rights. Potential versus actual As a general rule we don't think that potential properties are the same as actual properties, or that potential rights are the same as actual rights. Children are potential adults, but that doesn't give them the same rights or obligations as adults. Potential beings don't have the same rights as actual beings Generally we do differentiate between actual and potential beings, and we distinguish between their rights, too. Many of the rights of a potential person are only potential rights - they only become actual rights when the person becomes an actual person. So, for example, a 10 year old is a potential voter, and it has the potential right to vote, but it doesn't get the actual right to vote until it reaches its 18th birthday and becomes eligible to vote. And another example: the heir to the throne is a potential king, but he doesn't have the rights of a king until the present monarch dies. The newborn argument One of the strongest arguments for giving the full rights of person to the foetus because it is a potential person flows from the status of a new born baby. At birth a new born baby possesses so few of the characteristics required for 'moral personhood' that its right to life can't be based on it being a 'moral person'. Nonetheless, everyone does accept that it has a right to life - even those who follow the 'moral person' line of thought. Actually not everyone does accept the newborn has a right to life: some ethicists argue that abortion and infanticide are both morally permissible because 'moral personhood and the right to life are acquired only some time after birth, but this is an uncommon position. This right to life seems to flow from the potential that the newborn has to become a 'moral person', and this in turn seems to support the argument that a potential 'moral person' has the right to life.[/quote] I stand by Cam42's remarks that 'he who is to be man, is man already', and that full rights to life should be given to the unborn. However, I would apprecicate your thoughts and comments on this. i don't have time to into detail for now, but hope to return later and expand my own post. God bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 What inarticulate doofus wrote that drivel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vasilius Konstantinos Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 Even though its a question of "Should abortion be illegal" the fact remains here in the United States it is legal. Blessings be upon the Roman Church and the efforts made by her. She is a light in this dark world and the Orthodox Church has walked along side her many times to stop this atrocity upon our land. But this current administration made a promise in the State of Wisconsin which I hail from that he would put an end to the right to life in WI and thast he would guarantee that abortions be granted tpo anyone who wishes to have one, since the state of WI has been allowed to not perform abortions for many years, and only in extreme cases can one be performed here. Planned Parenthood is now going to receive funds and once the healthcare bill passes it is going to enforce doctors to perform abortions if requested, and refusal to perform means that they lose their license, even if its for ethical reasons not to. Is it a sin to vote for a pro-abortion candidate especially if he made it known that he would expand the abortion laws further? I think so, as does many Orthodox Bishops. Is this so in the Catholic Church? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 [quote name='Vasilius Konstantinos' post='1889291' date='Jun 12 2009, 07:06 PM']Is it a sin to vote for a pro-abortion candidate especially if he made it known that he would expand the abortion laws further? I think so, as does many Orthodox Bishops. Is this so in the Catholic Church?[/quote] The simple answer to that question would be that it would be a sin to vote for a candidate who supports abortion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpfrog Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 Well, I'll add my nickel's worth... Here in South Korea, abortion is illegal except for severe deformities, serious threats to the mother's life or fertility, or in the case of rape or incest. However, this country has one of the highest abortion rates in the world; the [u]reported[/u] rate is the same as the US, however, not all abortions are reported here, since most of them fall outside the legal requirements. Women who have unplanned pregnancies...they just go to a doctor and get an abortion. Most OB/GYNs perform abortions as a matter of course. Many young, unmarried women get pregnant here, but it is almost unheard-of to be a single mom here, and there is NO support for them. Many teens get pregnant here, but I have never heard of a teenage mother. Furthermore, it is common (although less so in the past decade) for married women to abort female fetuses because they are trying for a son...this is especially true if they already have a daughter. It is illegal for doctors to tell the sex of a fetus for that reason, but many do anyway. This country is heavily Christian and even Catholic. But, as far as I can tell, abortion is rarely discussed in the public sphere. There is little to really bring it into the public sphere, because it is, after all, illegal, except for cases that are truly exceptional. Furthermore, as a slight aside, Koreans are pretty blunt about certain facts: no one is interested, in this highly competitive and materialistic society, in shelling out for the support of anyone but their immediate family. For many taxpayers around the world, the only difference between them and the typical Korean, is that the Korean will be more in-your-face honest about their opinions and priorities. I wonder if abortion became illegal in America, very similar attitudes would arise...as they did, in fact, during the early-mid-1990s in America--remember all those anti-'welfare queen' pundits? Abortion was in a very slight decline during that time, and look what came out of the woodwork: a bunch of venomous attackers who attempted to publicly denigrate impoverished women who chose to have their children instead of aborting them. What does it come down to? Do people want to really stop abortion, and support women and their families, or are they happy to maintain a mere appearance of virtuous laws? It seems that changing the law will not stop abortion, not at this stage of the game, although it might make us look good. What it very likely will do is make public dialogue quite impossible, just like it is in here in Korea. There are virtually no protests or anything here. And, a woman cannot really discuss her options with anyone outside of her doctor, because of the illegality of it. No one really has much chance to convince her not to abort, nor are the reasons for life widely stated or visibly supported. At this time, there is talk of making abortion more widely available here, because the illegal nature of most abortions makes them very expensive. Women have to pay cash for illegal abortions, as they are of course not covered by the national health care plan. But allowing more legal abortions at this point will only save women money; at this point it is hard to imagine that is will cause [u]more[/u] abortions...at this time, the abortion rate is estimated at about 80% of the live birth rate in Korea. But, perhaps relaxing the abortion laws here will spur the Christian pro-life movement here, and socially develop a sense of wrongness about abortion that is not currently present, in addition to challenging a lot of deeply-held assumptions about what lives are worthy. Although Korea is very family-oriented, and children are cherished, many people cannot accept disabilities, and cannot forgive 'shameful' transgressions. In fact, both of these situations can make it very difficult for other siblings to get married...in other words, if my sister has a deformed baby, it will be very hard for me to find a husband. If a girl has a baby out of wedlock, it means her brother is seen as a less-than-desirable potential husband. Also, women who are pregnant out of wedlock would very likely be fired from their jobs, as soon as their secret was discovered. Some of these conditions were true of America and Canada before abortion was legal, and these conditions were part of what drove women to have abortions, even before they were legalized. There is just very little way to fight abortion in Korea now, and there is little way to reach women in crisis pregnancies. Everything is in secret. I guess I worry about the same thing happening in the US, if the pro-life dream comes true. Abortions will not stop, especially now that they are easily drug-induced, but it [u]will[/u] be harder to reach women and help them choose life, just like it is here in Korea. It makes me wonder about where the hand of God is in all of this...has the abortion situation become a kind of horrible crucible that societies must go through? Human life has been regarded cheaply enough throughout the ages...injustice has shed the blood of many innocents, in many situations, where their blood was considered unimportant or at least expendible for some "greater good". But as time went on, we understood more and more clearly the preciousness of life, and articulated it, made laws to protect it. It seems like the legalization of abortion is a rejection of the preciousness of life. However... It almost seems to me that the legalization of abortion flushed into the open secrets that needed to be uncovered, and caused assumptions about the human person and human life to be exposed and examined. Societies are still struggling with them. Some among us have come to disasterous conclusions about them, which have accepted evil and bowed to social pressure, rather than rejecting attitudes and assumptions that are anti-life, or that only affirm life conditionally. Sometimes I think it is only recently that the sacrifices and needs of mothers and children have been really recognized, the power of women as life-givers really appreciated...not just talked about sentimentally, but really valued and recognized [u]unconditionally[/u]. Few people nowadays feel it is legitimate to shame, reject, or discriminate against a woman because she is pregnant out of wedlock. The word 'bastard' is out of the lexicon, expect as a profanity. I can't help but connect the fact that as women have had the chance to choose (publicly, openly) life, when they also have the option of rejecting it, we, as a society, have achieved an [u]unconditional[/u] understanding and acceptance of motherhood. The choice for life is virtue, and willing sacrifice. Finally, it is widely recognized as such, rather than being dismissed as an unremarkable matter of biological necessity, or worse, despised as a source of punishing shame. Will Korea also pass through this crucible, I wonder? Is there another way to expose the secrets here, to challenge assumptions and publicly affirm the unconditional preciousness of life and the acceptance of [u]all [/u]mothers, and [u]all[/u] children? Legalization, as horrible as it has been in the US and other places, has put a light in dark places, and openly exposed and challenged assumptions that otherwise might have continued to exert an invisible pull towards death, which is what these assumptions do here. (sorry...this is super-rambling...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat22 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 (edited) can those whom voted legal give me their passwords so I can delete their accounts? please? you voted for the continuation of the holocaust that's already murdered 50 million innocent lives. and for the CONVENIENCE of a few bloody mass murderers Edited June 14, 2009 by pat22 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 [quote name='jumpfrog' post='1889368' date='Jun 12 2009, 09:55 PM']Well, I'll add my nickel's worth... Here in South Korea, abortion is illegal except for severe deformities, serious threats to the mother's life or fertility, or in the case of rape or incest. However, this country has one of the highest abortion rates in the world; the [u]reported[/u] rate is the same as the US, however, not all abortions are reported here, since most of them fall outside the legal requirements. Women who have unplanned pregnancies...they just go to a doctor and get an abortion. Most OB/GYNs perform abortions as a matter of course. Many young, unmarried women get pregnant here, but it is almost unheard-of to be a single mom here, and there is NO support for them. Many teens get pregnant here, but I have never heard of a teenage mother. Furthermore, it is common (although less so in the past decade) for married women to abort female fetuses because they are trying for a son...this is especially true if they already have a daughter. It is illegal for doctors to tell the sex of a fetus for that reason, but many do anyway. This country is heavily Christian and even Catholic. But, as far as I can tell, abortion is rarely discussed in the public sphere. There is little to really bring it into the public sphere, because it is, after all, illegal, except for cases that are truly exceptional. Furthermore, as a slight aside, Koreans are pretty blunt about certain facts: no one is interested, in this highly competitive and materialistic society, in shelling out for the support of anyone but their immediate family. For many taxpayers around the world, the only difference between them and the typical Korean, is that the Korean will be more in-your-face honest about their opinions and priorities. I wonder if abortion became illegal in America, very similar attitudes would arise...as they did, in fact, during the early-mid-1990s in America--remember all those anti-'welfare queen' pundits? Abortion was in a very slight decline during that time, and look what came out of the woodwork: a bunch of venomous attackers who attempted to publicly denigrate impoverished women who chose to have their children instead of aborting them. What does it come down to? Do people want to really stop abortion, and support women and their families, or are they happy to maintain a mere appearance of virtuous laws? It seems that changing the law will not stop abortion, not at this stage of the game, although it might make us look good. What it very likely will do is make public dialogue quite impossible, just like it is in here in Korea. There are virtually no protests or anything here. And, a woman cannot really discuss her options with anyone outside of her doctor, because of the illegality of it. No one really has much chance to convince her not to abort, nor are the reasons for life widely stated or visibly supported. At this time, there is talk of making abortion more widely available here, because the illegal nature of most abortions makes them very expensive. Women have to pay cash for illegal abortions, as they are of course not covered by the national health care plan. But allowing more legal abortions at this point will only save women money; at this point it is hard to imagine that is will cause [u]more[/u] abortions...at this time, the abortion rate is estimated at about 80% of the live birth rate in Korea. But, perhaps relaxing the abortion laws here will spur the Christian pro-life movement here, and socially develop a sense of wrongness about abortion that is not currently present, in addition to challenging a lot of deeply-held assumptions about what lives are worthy. Although Korea is very family-oriented, and children are cherished, many people cannot accept disabilities, and cannot forgive 'shameful' transgressions. In fact, both of these situations can make it very difficult for other siblings to get married...in other words, if my sister has a deformed baby, it will be very hard for me to find a husband. If a girl has a baby out of wedlock, it means her brother is seen as a less-than-desirable potential husband. Also, women who are pregnant out of wedlock would very likely be fired from their jobs, as soon as their secret was discovered. Some of these conditions were true of America and Canada before abortion was legal, and these conditions were part of what drove women to have abortions, even before they were legalized. There is just very little way to fight abortion in Korea now, and there is little way to reach women in crisis pregnancies. Everything is in secret. I guess I worry about the same thing happening in the US, if the pro-life dream comes true. Abortions will not stop, especially now that they are easily drug-induced, but it [u]will[/u] be harder to reach women and help them choose life, just like it is here in Korea. It makes me wonder about where the hand of God is in all of this...has the abortion situation become a kind of horrible crucible that societies must go through? Human life has been regarded cheaply enough throughout the ages...injustice has shed the blood of many innocents, in many situations, where their blood was considered unimportant or at least expendible for some "greater good". But as time went on, we understood more and more clearly the preciousness of life, and articulated it, made laws to protect it. It seems like the legalization of abortion is a rejection of the preciousness of life. However... It almost seems to me that the legalization of abortion flushed into the open secrets that needed to be uncovered, and caused assumptions about the human person and human life to be exposed and examined. Societies are still struggling with them. Some among us have come to disasterous conclusions about them, which have accepted evil and bowed to social pressure, rather than rejecting attitudes and assumptions that are anti-life, or that only affirm life conditionally. Sometimes I think it is only recently that the sacrifices and needs of mothers and children have been really recognized, the power of women as life-givers really appreciated...not just talked about sentimentally, but really valued and recognized [u]unconditionally[/u]. Few people nowadays feel it is legitimate to shame, reject, or discriminate against a woman because she is pregnant out of wedlock. The word 'bastard' is out of the lexicon, expect as a profanity. I can't help but connect the fact that as women have had the chance to choose (publicly, openly) life, when they also have the option of rejecting it, we, as a society, have achieved an [u]unconditional[/u] understanding and acceptance of motherhood. The choice for life is virtue, and willing sacrifice. Finally, it is widely recognized as such, rather than being dismissed as an unremarkable matter of biological necessity, or worse, despised as a source of punishing shame. Will Korea also pass through this crucible, I wonder? Is there another way to expose the secrets here, to challenge assumptions and publicly affirm the unconditional preciousness of life and the acceptance of [u]all [/u]mothers, and [u]all[/u] children? Legalization, as horrible as it has been in the US and other places, has put a light in dark places, and openly exposed and challenged assumptions that otherwise might have continued to exert an invisible pull towards death, which is what these assumptions do here. (sorry...this is super-rambling...)[/quote] Some thoughts. Abortion-on-demand was not the law of the land in the U.S. until the abominable Roe. v. Wade Supreme Court decision in 1973. Since 1973, the level of abortions in America sky-rocketed, not declined. If the evil of abortion-on-demand has indirectly brought about the good of people working to show the dignity of human life, thank God, yet this does not mean this gravely evil act of murder should be legal. Should we legalize murder (of people already born) or theft for similar reasons? Maybe you need to work to organize a pro-life movement and draw attention to the evil of abortion and find ways to fight it in Korea, but you should not legalize this evil. That will not make things better, but worse, just at it did in the U.S. Now that the U.S. Supreme Court has declared abortion to be an inalienable human right, it's extremely hard to fight abortion at all legally. Obviously, just having laws against abortion is not enough, and other things must be done to fight abortion, but that is not at all opposed to legally protecting the lives of the unborn. (That idea is a maddeningly asinine liberal myth.) We need to do all we can to protect innocent human life, legally and otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didacus Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 [quote name='Socrates' post='1890974' date='Jun 14 2009, 10:20 PM'][snip] Obviously, just having laws against abortion is not enough, and other things must be done to fight abortion, but that is not at all opposed to legally protecting the lives of the unborn. (That idea is a maddeningly asinine liberal myth.) We need to do all we can to protect innocent human life, legally and otherwise.[/quote] For the world to change, the hearts of men must change. JP the Great said that any notable cahgne in the law concerning abortion must be precluded by a change in societal attitudes and norms. For the laws to change effectively, the society must change. I think he's right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 I would hasten to point out that laws are very effective at changing societal attitudes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpfrog Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Yes, but in a democracy, attitudes are often what allow laws to change... The civil rights movement in the US comes to mind...people had been working for civil right for years, and activists suffered terribly. Their acts of peaceful civil disobedience drew down incredible violence from law enforcers and the general public...it wasn't until the american people started to see these effects of racial hatred writ large on the social landscape that a majority of people felt a sense of shame and horror awaked in them. It was only then that the laws changed, and started to become enforced. I really do wonder about how God is active in the abortion situation...because his hand is ever over us, no matter what. I think God is active everywhere, even in this situation we find ourselves in. I just wonder about that, how we can understand how he might be present.... Abortion is often compared to the Holocaust...another comparison could be: For centuries, anti-Semitism smoldered in Europe and elsewhere, sometimes bursting into flame and causing horrific injustices and tragedies. And yet, anti-Semitism presisted, was ever-present, and was not much remarked on. Then, anti-Semitism reached the horrific bottom of a slippery slope, the extreme end-point conclusion implicit in anti-Semitism. Finally, the world recognizes Evil, the same evil that many people had contentedly co-existed with for such a long time. Now, anti-Semitism does rage in a few places, but in Europe and most of the West, it is vigilantly watched for, and stamped out, rejected utterly, by nearly all people. All recognize how the small evils present in our attitudes and prejudices are on a continuum with the Holocaust. That is why nearly all commited anti-Semites also tend to be Holocaust deniers. The culture of death in our societies did not originate with the proliferation of abortion...but the proliferation of abortion has certainly exposed that culture at it 'logical' conclusion. And, in their own defence, pro-choice believers must vigorously deny the humanity or life status of the unborn... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 [quote name='Didacus' post='1891234' date='Jun 15 2009, 08:29 AM']For the world to change, the hearts of men must change. JP the Great said that any notable cahgne in the law concerning abortion must be precluded by a change in societal attitudes and norms. For the laws to change effectively, the society must change. I think he's right.[/quote] That may be true, but this does not mean that that pro-lifers should abandon the fight to have the lives of unborn persons legally protected (as many liberals, including "pro-life" liberals, suggest). If we are serious about the dignity of unborn human life, we will work to have it granted legal protection. Not that legal protection is the only thing pro-lifers should work for, but it is certainly an integral part of the package. If the law does not protect innocent human life at its most vulnerable, it is worthless. If even all self-described "pro-lifers" would actually vote pro-life, rather than making various excuses for voting for blatantly pro-abortion politicians, some significant progress could be made in this country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 [quote name='Socrates' post='1892108' date='Jun 15 2009, 09:45 PM']If even all self-described "pro-lifers" would actually vote pro-life, rather than making various excuses for voting for blatantly pro-abortion politicians, some significant progress could be made in this country.[/quote] Apparently it's over 50% now, eh? That means that a lot of people who call themselves pro-life now voted for Obama. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musturde Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Winchester' post='1891599' date='Jun 15 2009, 04:15 PM']I would hasten to point out that laws are very effective at changing societal attitudes.[/quote] You mean like prohibition in the 1920s? How about something more recent. When's the last time you or someone you know downloaded an mp3 illegally? I could very easily put Massmatics on a torrent site right now. How about something more related... Let's look at Egypt, a country that has already outlawed abortion. A study reported that out of 1,300 women with unintended pregnancies, more than one third sought an abortion even when the procedure was unsafe. [url="http://www.fhi.org/en/RH/Pubs/wsp/fctshts/Egypt4.htm"]http://www.fhi.org/en/RH/Pubs/wsp/fctshts/Egypt4.htm[/url] Remember, this was in Egypt. I highly doubt American society will be any better. If the government outlaws abortion, those trained to perform abortions won't be out of work. In fact, I fear many in America will resort to unsafe abortions. It is better to change people's hearts first. You can put laws on people, but outlawing something so common will not stop it. Edited June 16, 2009 by musturde Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 (edited) [quote name='musturde' post='1892453' date='Jun 16 2009, 02:10 AM']In fact, I fear many in America will resort to unsafe abortions.[/quote] That implies that the current procedure is "safe." Edited June 16, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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