Out & In ~ RCIA ~ Revolving Doors ~ Evangelism

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='CoffeeCatholic' post='1043042' date='Aug 13 2006, 10:34 PM']The RC church has the second largest membership in America (only to the southern baptists)[/quote]Actually, the Catholic Church is the largest branch of Christianity in the United States. See Adherents.com ([url="http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html#families"]link[/url]) for some statistics. What's interesting is that the Southern Baptist population seems to have flattened out over the last decade or so. I suspect that this is caused by defections to non-denominational churches.

[quote name='CoffeeCatholic' post='1043042' date='Aug 13 2006, 10:34 PM']I know, i'm one of them[/quote]

That's great!

[Eutychus]

[quote][u]The ex-Catholics you have joining your church were never properly catachised.[/u] A sad thought. It's impossible to believe that a person who believes in God and believes in God's omnipotence, His inability to not be able to do something (mind trip!), would honestly understand the amazing doctrine of the Eucharist, know why we believe it, and have faith in it, simply to loose it and go to a protestant church, which is remarkably empty. [/quote]

Ironically, I agree totally.

For, you see, Catholics use this one all the time. Even with those of us, who went to 12 years of Catholic school, even those who were priests and nuns, IMMEDIATELY upon their leaving the Catholic Church, are subjected to the "you were never PROPERLY Catechised" nonsense....

Now, why would I agree?

Do you know what Catechised means?

Those programmed to regurgitate upon command, by ROTE LEARNING, canned, prewritten answers to standard questions. And YES, everyone of my age { old } who attended Catholic schools were given something called the BALTIMORE CATECHISM, and in order to be confirmed, you had to regurgitate upon command, enough standard pablem to convince the testors that yes, you had been sufficiently brainwashed with the proffered pablum and could puke it out when prodded.

Essentially, being CATECHISED means being a PARROT.

So, I guess you are correct, we were not *[u][b][i]PROPERLY [/i][/b][/u]CATECHISED* although we all WERE catechised. Had we been *PROPERLY CATECHISED* we would never have learned to think, never learned to be like the Acts 17:11 converts so highly praised by Paul, and we would be still snoozing in the pews and praying to plaster and paint.

Edited August 15, 2006 by Eutychus

[Guest JeffCR07]

The issue should not be the number of people in the pews, but rather, the truth of the doctrine that is being taught. I will be more than happy to discuss, one on one, any point of Catholic doctrine that you desire, Eutychus. But my sense is that your posts are more intended for their polemic effect than for any truth in their content.

[thessalonian]

I guess he doesn't like the story of the prodigal son. I do not know of any Catholic who has come back to the church more than once, though I am sure there has been some. They are rare. I do know that the statistic according to ray comfort is that the average person making an altar call has done so six or 8 times.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1043971' date='Aug 15 2006, 07:08 AM']
Essentially, being CATECHISED means being a PARROT.[/quote]As opposed to your alternative where each believer makes up his own truth?

LOL. No thanks. I'd rather be a parrot for Christ than a free-thinker for satan.
[quote name='Eutychus' post='1043971' date='Aug 15 2006, 07:08 AM']...never learned to be like the Acts 17:11 converts so highly praised by Paul[/quote]Certainly, the Jews of Beroea were not exempt from the following:([url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/hebrews/hebrews13.htm#v17"]link[/url]):
[quote name='Hebrews 13:17']Obey your leaders and defer to them, for they keep watch over you and will have to give an account, that they may fulfill their task with joy and not with sorrow, for that would be of no advantage to you.[/quote]In contrast to today's American protestants, the Jews mentioned in Acts didn't found an endless number of competing churches with contradicting doctrines. Second, the Beroeans--like all the other Christian converts of the time--looked to a personal authority outside of themselves (i.e. St. Paul) as a representative of and a link to a universal Church. Each of the epistles in Holy Scriptures is a testament to the fact that a united Church had the authority to guide and correct local Christian comminuties.

Show me where the Holy Scriptures show the local churches could reject the authority of the Apostles (specifically, rejecting the teachings of the New Testament Epistles), and I'd join your heresy today. Side note: you still haven't revealed what particular flavor of Christianity you adhere to. Perhaps you're insecure about the defensibility of your beliefs, or realize that your church has watered down Christianity to the point that it only holds on to a "least common denominator" of belief, so you hide it and choose rather to attack someone else's believes rather than take a positive defense of your own.

In any event, if one could prove such a thing (i.e. selective acceptance of apostolic teachings), it would follow that the New Testament should be rejected, too. Maybe that's why protestant/evangelical/non-denominational/anarchic Christianity falls apart like a castle made out of cards.

[stbernardLT]

I'll bet if we preached such a simple, nonsuffering Gospel message we would have the same turn out. I mean besides it is always better to hear that after baptism you can do whatever you want and still inherit the kingdom. I mean that is what the beatitudes teach right, "Blessed are the baptized for they will not be held accountable." Man I like the sound of that. Or maybe it is the protestant message of the more we give the more we get, forget about being poor in spirit, I need to be rich in reimbursements. Anyway most protestant churches start out with the resurrection. Everything is peachy keen. The virgin birth isn't important, so what if Jesus said not to break His commandments (we are already baptized). The last supper gets about as high a ranking as the serpent in the desert (symbolism connects us to an untouchable God, real presence connects us to an approachable God who offers salvation through His body and blood). I wonder what importance the crucifixion holds (the single most important event in human history) in these churches. Afterall Jesus died so we could live, oops I mean he died so we could be baptized and live if we felt like it.
Oh well who cares, the only things that are important is: when will the world end, Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus, Romans 6, the rapture, tithing for returns, the waterdowned theology of the crucifixion, the resurrection, creationism, and any old testament prophesy that refers to war. I would love to attend a church like this. Too bad I can't avoid the truth.

This has been a condensed version of protestant seminary. Everyone on here can now be a pastor and PROSPER from the gospel.

Sorry I got to go pay respect to my Mother. Afterall it is the day she was taken up into heaven body and soul. I love being Catholic.

[stbernardLT]

I almost forgot to mention that truth is never decided by popularity, just read John 6.

[Eutychus]

[quote] In contrast to today's American protestants, [b][u]the Jews mentioned in Acts didn't found an endless number of competing churches with contradicting doctrines.[/u][/b][/quote]

Oh ye who knows little history...

I just LOVE it when a Roman Catholic TRIES to spout off history, as if they had a clue what went on.

RCIA needs revamped. All Catholic education seems to be so materially deficient in history, given that the ERASER is the main tool of Catholic theolgogians, I guess that stands to reason....

[quote][b]The following are the main divisions [u]which existed in Scripture times[/u][/b]:

I. - THE KENITES.
II. - THE RECHABITES.
III. - THE SAMARITANS.
IV. - NAZIRITES.
THE CHASIDIM.
V. - THE PHARISEES.
VI. - THE SADDUCEES.
VII. - THE ESSENES.
VIII. - THE SCRIBES.
IX. - THE LAWYERS.
X. - THE HERODIANS.
XI. - THE ZEALOTS.
XII. - THE GALILEANS.
XIII. - SICARII.

OTHER CLASSES OF JEWS.
XVI. - THE SANHEDRIN.
XV. - PROSELYTES.
XVI. - PUBLICANS.
XVII. - HELLENISTS.
[/quote]



[quote] I'll bet if we preached such a simple, nonsuffering Gospel message we would have the same turn out. I mean besides it is always better to hear that after baptism you can do whatever you want and still inherit the kingdom.[/quote]

OR....

You can depend on the magic talisman and GET A FREE PASS??

Hey, why repent and change, just invest in a little woolen patch and yadda big, yadda bang, in you go into heaven!

[img]http://www.sacramentals.com/Images/Scapular.Traditional.gif[/img]

Edited August 15, 2006 by Eutychus

[HS_Dad]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1044252' date='Aug 15 2006, 05:48 PM']
RCIA needs revamped.
[/quote]

I agree most RCIA needs revamping... Not enough emphasis on conversion to Christ and too much
head knowledge.......


[quote name='Eutychus' post='1044252' date='Aug 15 2006, 05:48 PM']
Hey, why repent and change, ......
[/quote]

Repenting and having a change of heart to Christ is critical.... Over and over this is mentioned in the gospels.
New life comes from turning to Christ.

I am sorry for the lack of Christ-like love by some on this thread..... But, looking at your posts, I can tell you have
bitterness. I'd like to direct you to the following website:
[url="http://www.evangelicalcatholic.org/"]http://www.evangelicalcatholic.org/[/url]

and the writings of Cardinal Dulles for an understanding that
one can be a good Evangelical Christian and a Catholic.... And the reason to be both would be a love for Christ and
the Scripture..... (I Corinthians 1:11-13 [NIV] 11My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas[a]"; still another, "I follow Christ."

13Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into[b] the name of Paul?



Anyways, peace brother!

[jswranch]

All,
I wanted to give a summary of the people in this upcoming RCIA season. As a graduate of our parish program from last year, I was proud to see:

3 unchurched
1 Anglican
2 Protestants (non-specified)
1 Wesleyan
1 lukewarm Catholic who "remembers nothing from CCD"
1 fallen away Catholic returing from Modernism and desires re-training
1 Protestant married to a choir member, who has attended mass for fourty years and never took the time

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1044252' date='Aug 15 2006, 06:48 PM']Oh ye who knows little history...

I just LOVE it when a Roman Catholic TRIES to spout off history, as if they had a clue what went on.[/quote]Following your example, should my response be, "Oh ye who has minimal reading comprehension"? Do you see how condescending your post sounds?

I was specifically referring to the Jewish converts of Beroea (i.e. the "converts so highly praised by Paul") that we were discussing, mentioned in Acts 17:11 . Those converts did not establish separate churches. I was explicit about this, and was not speaking in generalizations about 1st century Judaism.

I am quite aware that Judaism was split into a variety of sects; but, these sects were not caused by Christianity, and they did not result in autocephalous sects within Christianity.

Before you jump the gun and go off on a tangent to criticizing RCIA, please try to resolve any confusion you might have with my post. As a side note, I don't think it's appropriate for you to criticize the RCIA program, since I'm not a convert.

Edited August 16, 2006 by Mateo el Feo

[HollyDolly]

Eutychus,i don't see anything wrong with having dinner or being friends with an RCIA instructor.
Maybe your friend will look at the information you gave him and can borrow some ideas from it to use in his classes.
NEVER have I ever had a fellow Catholic invite me to go to church with them.Bu i have had protestants do so.
I think the Catholic Church needs to borrow a few ideas from the other side and go and reach out to people.There are some orders of nuns like the Sisters,Home Visitors of Mary,and the Parish Visitors of Mary Immaculate who do go door to door to people.But there aren't too many like that.Besides,trying to spread the Faith,they may also provide information about social and charitable services in the area,which could help a battered woman and her family,or the elderly,etc.
We really have to reach out more to our fellow Christians and spread the Gospel of Jesus to them and about our faith.
Faint heart never won fair maiden as they say.

Most people are not into big philisophical discussons about doctrine and canon law.They need to know about Jesus,what the Eucharist means,why you should go to confession,and kept holy days of obligation and a few simple things.The rest can be left to the theologians. St.Bernardine of Sienna,St.Vincent Ferrer and other famous preachers of the church,told the story of Jesus
in terms laymen and women could relate to,not high falutan fancy talk that only the pope could grasp.

At least you are trying to help your friend which i think is nice.

[Eutychus]

[u][b]Catholic Evangelism is an Oxymoronism.[/b][/u]

Honestly.

EVERY SINGLE evangelical is TRAINED to spread the world of Christ, all of us, every single one.

And we do it too. I only have to ask the readers here, all Catholics, HOW MANY evangelicals have tried to talk to you about salvation and Jesus in your life? If you are like most, you are sick of them doing so, right?

Now we turn the tables. How many Evangelicals have ever had a Roman Catholic come up to them, and do the same thing?

The numbers approach ZERO, if you want to be honest. And WHY is that? The truth is ... most Roman Catholics know literally nothing about their church, God, Jesus, or the bible. They are too embarrassed and in their shame they more or less hide and cower, fear and ignorance being the main features of the Roman Catholic pew pupplies.

Think I'm exaggerating here? Read some of the polls that test Christians on anything....the Roman Catholics are on the bottom of EVERY measurable element of faith, practice, giving, and knowledge...dead last.

The recent Barna report on evangelical beliefs in mainline churches is almost too excruciating to read. . . and Roman Catholics are holding up the bottom of the curve:


[quote]Catholics had the lowest percentage (23 percent) who believed the Bible to be accurate. . .

[u][b]ONLY - 17 percent of Catholics believed Satan was real;[/b] [/u]

ONLY - 33 percent of Catholics believed Jesus was sinless;

AND - 91 percent of Catholics believed works earn salvation . . . . [/quote]


Caught in our Shame: Comments on the Recent Barna Report

[url="http://www.ccwonline.org/pbarna.html"]CLICK HERE[/url]

Edited August 17, 2006 by Eutychus

[Socrates]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1044900' date='Aug 16 2006, 06:01 PM']
[u][b]Catholic Evangelism is an Oxymoronism.[/b][/u]

Honestly.

EVERY SINGLE evangelical is TRAINED to spread the world of Christ, all of us, every single one.

And we do it too. I only have to ask the readers here, all Catholics, HOW MANY evangelicals have tried to talk to you about salvation and Jesus in your life? If you are like most, you are sick of them doing so, right?

Now we turn the tables. How many Evangelicals have ever had a Roman Catholic come up to them, and do the same thing?

The numbers approach ZERO, if you want to be honest. And WHY is that? The truth is ... most Roman Catholics know literally nothing about their church, God, Jesus, or the bible. They are too embarrassed and in their shame they more or less hide and cower, fear and ignorance being the main features of the Roman Catholic pew pupplies.

Think I'm exaggerating here? Read some of the polls that test Christians on anything....the Roman Catholics are on the bottom of EVERY measurable element of faith, practice, giving, and knowledge...dead last.

The recent Barna report on evangelical beliefs in mainline churches is almost too excruciating to read. . . and Roman Catholics are holding up the bottom of the curve:
Caught in our Shame: Comments on the Recent Barna Report

[url="http://www.ccwonline.org/pbarna.html"]CLICK HERE[/url]
[/quote]
Yes, shame on all those who call themselves "Catholic," let blatantly reject or ignore what the Catholic Church teaches.

Unfortunately there are many who use "Catholic" as nothing more than a kind of ethnic designation (like "Jewish"), but who neither practice nor care about their Faith.

And I personally know many Catholics who are very active in evangelization, even those who volunteer several years of their lives to evanglize on college campuses.

Those people who neither believe, follow, nor spread the Catholic Faith do not deserve the label "Catholic."

Edited August 17, 2006 by Socrates

[Eutychus]

Oh. lest you accuse me of { as is normally the case } being mean, nasty, yada yada...

I will let a most insightful article published in OUR SUNDAY VISITOR by Ralph Martin, say the same but done by a Roman Catholic trying to explain WHAT is the problem....here....now....and always.

[color="#663333"][quote]]Catholic leaders often "blame" Protestants for proselytizing Catholics and commend us for the "richness" of our faith. However, we need to face the embarrassing question of why so many millions of Catholics around the world are finding a reality of Christian life in Evangelical and Pentecostal churches that they did not find in their local Catholic church.[/u]

The wrong kind of Catholic pride twists confidence in the truth and the treasures of Catholicism into complacency. It blinds us to the impoverished state of many Catholic institutions and many Catholics' lives.

[b]I know of many Catholics who have fallen away from their faith-or who were living in parishes where the gospel was not being preached and morality was not being taught and no support was being given for family life-and who found a living, personal relationship with Jesus Christ in a Baptist or Assembly of God congregation.

[u]Rather than condemning the Protestants for proselytism, we Catholics should consider the possibility that people might find more practical help in the Protestant churches for avoiding hell and attaining heaven than they were getting in their Catholic parishes. [/u][/b][/quote][/color]

AMEN to that one.

By the way, my church is now 60% ex Roman Catholic. My last one was over 1/2 ex Catholic Church. AND THAT was EXACTLY what I heard over and over from those when the topic of why we all changed came up.