Do you think Israel should have been made?

[Mitchell_b55]

"The Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, [b]as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures.[/b] All should see to it, then, that in catechetical work or in the preaching of the word of God they do not teach anything that does not conform to the truth of the Gospel and the spirit of Christ."

The only reason that I believe the theory an acceptable one, which I don't believe by the way, is because of that statement. "As if this followed from the Holy Scriptures." The theory can be advocated from a historical observation and not Holy Scripture, very effectively. And because we should only present it as theory and not as a fact thus teaching something which "does not conform to the truth of the Gospel and the spirit of Christ."

Edited August 10, 2006 by petrus_scholasticus

[Resurrexi]

[quote]Because we've had a similar thread while you were gone. [/quote]
I realize that. I've been lurking the whole time I was gone.

[quote]This thread will inevitably devolve into the typical invective and obsession with Jews, Judaism, Israel, and "Judaizing", bearing no resemblence to what the Bishops of the Catholic Church have to say, particularly the Bishop of Rome. [/quote]

Those quotes were from Oecumenical Councils and from the Bishop of Rome. They are offocial teaching and of course bear resemblence to what His Holiness professes.

[quote]The fact that you defended yourself from my simple remark by quoting Popes and railing against "Talmudic Judaism" is evidence enough that this thread is not just about a modern nation-State.[/quote]

I was saying since the Law of the New Testament has replaced the Law of Moses, there is no place for the latter in the modern world. Moreover, the State and the flase religion cannot be separated.

[quote]Go do something constructive with your time before you get suspended again, and spare us all the drama.[/quote]

You seriously think that after 2 months of suspension and a "Hello, I do not rep the Church" title I'm actually going to get suspended again? If anyone should be suspended, it should be people like Budge who are leading people astray. If I do get suspended again, it will not be for denying dogma (which, BTW I have never done) or being unfaithful to the Magesterium (I have learned obedience to them and have always thoght the Novus Ordo Missae was valid, at least in Latin, though I have never doubted it's validity in the horrible ICEL translation, and I have never been gulity of the heresy of sedevacantism), but it will be for saying bad things about non-Catholic religions.

Era Might, you quote from HH is in no way authoritative, it is his personal opinion on a matter. It is similar to him liking classical music. Catholics are in now way obliged to like classical music, even though he worships it (not like how you worship the Holy Trinity, or Beata Maria, or the Saints, but more like how you worship you spouse or father).

[quote]The Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures. All should see to it, then, that in catechetical work or in the preaching of the word of God they do not teach anything that does not conform to the truth of the Gospel and the spirit of Christ.

--"Nostra Aetate", Proclaimed by His Holiness Pope Paul VI[/quote]

I enterpret that as referring to the Jewish religion, not the Jewish race. I believe members of all non-Catholic religions to be accursed, but I do not think that any race is accursed or worse or better than any other. Vatican II, though, wasn't even a Dogmatic Council, it was a pastoral one, and therefore, it defined no Dogma or Dogmata.

[Era Might]

[quote name='petrus_scholasticus' post='1041139' date='Aug 10 2006, 06:55 PM']"The Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, [b]as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures.[/b] All should see to it, then, that in catechetical work or in the preaching of the word of God they do not teach anything that does not conform to the truth of the Gospel and the spirit of Christ."

The only reason that I believe the theory an acceptable one, which I don't believe by the way, is because of that statement. "As if this followed from the Holy Scriptures." The theory can be advocated from a historical observation and not Holy Scripture, very effectively. And because we should only present it as theory and not as a fact thus teaching something which "does not conform to the truth of the Gospel and the spirit of Christ."
[/quote]
I will respond once, and that is all. I refuse to give this silly thread the time of day.

Your reading of the passage is highly incorrect. Some people try to do the same with "Dei Verbum", limiting the inerrancy of Scripture because of a simple turn of phrase, "for the sake of our salvation". The intention of the Council Fathers, in "Nostra Aetate" as well as "Dei Verbum", is clear.

The Bishops of the Catholic Church have repeated and elaborated on the teaching of the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council many times over the last 40 years.

You may want to see, for example, the Holy See's "[url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/relations-jews-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_19820306_jews-judaism_en.html"][u]Notes on the correct ways to present the Jews and Judaism in preaching and catechesis in the Roman Catholic Church[/u][/url]":

[quote]The permanence of Israel (while so many ancient peoples have disappeared without trace) is a historic fact and a sign to be interpreted within God's design. We must in any case rid ourselves of the traditional idea of a people punished, preserved as a living argument for Christian apologetic. It remains a chosen people, "the pure olive on which were grafted the branches of the wild olive which are the gentiles" (John Paul II, 6th March, 1982, alluding to Rom 11:17-24). We must remember how much the balance of relations between Jews and Christians over two thousand years has been negative. We must remind ourselves how the permanence of Israel is accompanied by a continuous spiritual fecundity, in the rabbinical period, in the Middle Ages and in modern times, taking its start from a patrimony which we long shared, so much so that "the faith and religious life of the Jewish people as they are professed and practised still today, can greatly help us to understand better certain aspects of the life of the Church" (John Paul II, March 6th, 1982). Catechesis should on the other hand help in understanding the meaning for the Jews of the extermination during the years 1939-1945, and its consequences.[/quote]

This is not somebody's "theory". This is a formal document of the Holy See. For further reference, see "[url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/relations-jews-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_19741201_nostra-aetate_en.html"][u]Guidelines and suggestions for implementing the Conciliar declaration 'Nostra Aetate'[/u][/url]", "[url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/pcb_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20020212_popolo-ebraico_en.html"][u]The Jewish people and their Sacred Scriptures in the Christian Bible[/u][/url]", and Pope John Paul II's "[url="http://www.bc.edu/research/cjl/meta-elements/texts/cjrelations/resources/documents/catholic/johnpaulii/romesynagogue.htm"][u]1986 Address at the Great Synagogue of Rome[/u][/url]".

The last is particularly noteworthy, as he gives one of his many formal confirmations of the teaching of "Nostra Aetate" as the very doctrine of the Catholic Church:

[quote]We are all aware that, among the riches of this paragraph no. 4 of Nostra Aetate, three points are especially relevant. I would like to underline them here, before you, in this truly unique circumstance. The first is that the Church of Christ discovers her "bond" with Judaism by "searching into her own mystery" (cf. Nostra Aetate, ibid.) The Jewish religion is not "extrinsic" to us, but in a certain way is "intrinsic" to our own religion. With Judaism therefore we have a relationship which we do not have with any other religion. You are our dearly beloved brothers and, in a certain way, it could be said that you are our elder brothers.

[b]The second point noted by the Council is that no ancestral or collective blame can be imputed to the Jews as a people for "what happened in Christ's passion" (cf. Nostra Aetate, ibid.) Not indiscriminately to the Jews of that time, nor to those who came afterwards, nor to those of today. So any alleged theological justification for discriminatory measures or, worse still, for acts of persecution is unfounded. The Lord will judge each one "according to his own works," Jews and Christians alike (cf. Rom 2:6)

The third point that I would like to emphasize in the Council's Declaration is a consequence of the second. Notwithstanding the Church's awareness of her own identity, it is not lawful to say that the Jews are "repudiated or cursed," as it this were taught or could be deduced from the Sacred Scriptures of the Old or the New Testament (cf. Nostra Aetate, ibid.). Indeed, the Council had already said in this same text of Nostra Aetate, but also in the Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium, no. 16, referring to Saint Paul in the Letter to the Romans (11:28-29), that the Jews are beloved of God, who has called them with an irrevocable calling.[/b]

On these convictions rest our present relations. On the occasion of this visit to your Synagogue, I wish to reaffirm them and to proclaim them in their perennial value. For this is the meaning which is to be attributed to my visit to you, to the Jews of Rome. It is not of course because the differences between us have now been overcome that I have come among you. We know well that this is not so. First of all, each of our religions, in the full awareness of the many bonds which unite them to each other, and in the first place that "bond" which the Council spoke of, wishes to be recognized and respected in its own identity, beyond any syncretism and any ambiguous appropriation.[/quote]
God bless.

Edited August 10, 2006 by Era Might

[Aloysius]

An exile is not the same thing as a curse, however; especially considering that the Talmud itself describes the Jewish people as being in exile by God and saying that only the Messiah can end that exile.

They are not accursed, they are exiled as a part of God's plan and purpose.

The creation of the nation-state of israel appears to be against God's plan for the Jewish people; as laid out even in the Talmud itself and witnessed by the immense ammount of human violence and suffering the creation of this state has led to.

If we are to understand Christ as the Messiah, then we ought to believe that only with the Jewish acceptance of Christ could there be an Israel created in Palestine which was peaceful and pleasing to God's plans for the Jewish people.

st thomas more's quotes about the damnation of those who reject christ are irrelevant to this discussion as they regard the eternal state of souls who die culpable for the mortal sin of rejecting Christ and His Church. his quotes showing that the Church is the New Israel and that the Old Covenant has been superceded by the New Covenant are not in any way in conflict with the current understanding of the Church. there is no covenant with any jewish religion except Christianity (which is itself the true judaism). rabbinical judaism is not within the Church's deepest mystery; it is Old Testament Judaism that is at the core and source of the Church's mystery... and modern Judaism only insofar as it views itself from the same source.

[popestpiusx]

1)No
2)No
3)Yes

In 1904, Theodor Herzl, the founder of modern Zionism, was granted an audience with Pope St. Pius X. His purpose in meeting with the Pope was to gain support for the founding of a Jewish state in what was then known as Palestine. As Herzl recorded in his diary, the Pope gave an unfavorable response, saying: “We are unable to favor this movement. We cannot prevent the Jews from going to Jerusalem – but we could never sanction it. The ground of Jerusalem, if it were not always sacred, has been sanctified by the life of Jesus Christ. As the head of the Church, I cannot answer you otherwise. [b]The Jews have not recognized our Lord, therefore we cannot recognize the Jewish people. And so if you come to [/b] Palestine and settle your people there, we will be ready with churches and priests to baptize all of you."
as reported by Dave Martin

Edited August 11, 2006 by popestpiusx

[Anomaly]

A dispicable thread.
Justifying hateful acts does not fall within my concept of Catholic, Christian, or 'good'.
Technical interpretations of the rules of this phorum that prevent shutting down threads such as this is worse than sad.

Posting here only legitamizes and promotes people expressing these views.

The high road is the bye road.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1041262' date='Aug 10 2006, 09:06 PM']

The high road is the bye road.
[/quote]

Bye Bye

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1041262' date='Aug 10 2006, 09:06 PM']
A dispicable thread.
Justifying hateful acts does not fall within my concept of Catholic, Christian, or 'good'.

[/quote]

Hateful acts? Where have such things been justified?

[ruso]

For Israel , nothinig. But the state exiist.

Edited August 11, 2006 by ruso

[Aloysius]

no one here has supported hateful acts. that would be against the phorum guidelines.

the modern nation-state of israel is not some sacrosanct subject, however, just because it's threatened by terrorists. it was a radical action that the United Nations took in forming this state (against the advice of the then cheif rabbi of jerusalem) and whether or not it should have ever been created or should remain governing those lands in palestine is a debatable issue.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1041262' date='Aug 10 2006, 09:06 PM']
A dispicable thread.
Justifying hateful acts does not fall within my concept of Catholic, Christian, or 'good'.
Technical interpretations of the rules of this phorum that prevent shutting down threads such as this is worse than sad.

Posting here only legitamizes and promotes people expressing these views.

The high road is the bye road.
[/quote]

Did it occur to you that such a thread is a teaching moment and an excellent occasion to correct error?

[stephen]

As a Catholic I cannot think of one reason why I should support the Zionist idea which is absolutely contrary to God's will.

As an American I cannot think of one reason why I should support an alien nation which has attached itself to my nation like a squid and dragged it to the lowest depths to which it has ever sunk.

It's long past time to cut the tentacles and free ourselves from this curse.

[Resurrexi]

AMEN!

Edited August 12, 2006 by StThomasMore

[Jeff]

Are all sedevacants anti-sementic?

If so, why? The legacy of Pius X?

I know Mel Gibson's dad is. Is Mel a sedevacants also?

[Resurrexi]

Are you calling me a sede? Um, I wouldn't have His Holiness as my avatar if I were. And you better not be calling St. Pius X antisemetic.

Edited August 12, 2006 by StThomasMore

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1041115' date='Aug 10 2006, 05:32 PM']
Like I said, we all know where it's going.
[/quote]
I thought the same thing when I saw the title

this seems to be the only subject at PM that has ever really made it difficult for my blood pressure, lol