Tridentine Mass

[Resurrexi]

oh, btw people, the universal abbriviation for the Old Mass is not "TM" but "TLM" TLM = Traditional Latin Mass.

[memory-singer]

[quote name='shortnun' post='1041059' date='Aug 10 2006, 01:08 PM']

I've heard about your parish!!! My school is run by the Central (St. Albert the Great) Province of Friars. And I forget how it came up, but one of them told us about the Dominican Rite, and how it's only celebrated in a few places in the world (including the west coast). So there you have, you're famous!

We now return to your regularly schedule program....


[/quote]

It's a wonderful parish. They have taught me so much about liturgy and worship. If you get a chance, come some day.

Dare

[GodChild]

wow so many replies. I agree that perhaps I should have started this post in transmundane lane but its here now I guess. My 'theological'questions do pertain to the validity of the New Mass. There seems to be quiet alot of opinion (and rather convincing) that the New Mass is invalid and transubstantion may not even occur
Why the sudden break from Tradition. when historically the Church has always been traditionalist? Is it not plausible to at least consider that the New Mass is a man-made mass only?
I in no way rebel against the Pope and believe in the authority of the Pope .... this does not mean I follow blindly and this does not mean the individual who occupies the seat of the Pope is indeed 'Pope'.
I think I will shift this topic to transmundane lane under the title 'Tridentine Mass'. I'll elaborate my concerns a little further over there and give you some links to websites to examine.

[OLAM Dad]

[quote name='GodChild' post='1041727' date='Aug 11 2006, 06:50 PM']
wow so many replies. I agree that perhaps I should have started this post in transmundane lane but its here now I guess. My 'theological'questions do pertain to the validity of the New Mass. There seems to be quiet alot of opinion (and rather convincing) that the New Mass is invalid and transubstantion may not even occur
Why the sudden break from Tradition. when historically the Church has always been traditionalist? Is it not plausible to at least consider that the New Mass is a man-made mass only?
I in no way rebel against the Pope and believe in the authority of the Pope .... this does not mean I follow blindly and this does not mean the individual who occupies the seat of the Pope is indeed 'Pope'.
I think I will shift this topic to transmundane lane under the title 'Tridentine Mass'. I'll elaborate my concerns a little further over there and give you some links to websites to examine.
[/quote]

GodChild, let's be clear on one thing; the NO mass is the normative mass of the Roman Rite and is therefore, without question, valid and transubstantion does indeed occur. To suggest that it does not is very serious. I'm certainly glad that you believe in the authority of the pope and as such, you must believe in the authority of the magisterium. Must you blindly follow the teachings of the magisterium? Yes! and no. You must follow the teachings of the magisterium but you don't have to do so blindly. Study the documents of the second Vatican council, in context, and pray for the grace to understand their teachings. If, for whatever reason, you don't/can't/won't understand what they are saying then yes, you must follow them blindly.

I'm not interested in seeing the links that you will provide in the Transmundane Lane. I say to all of them, 'get thee behind me, Satan!'.

[LilyofSaintMaria]

[quote name='julielizabet' post='1041318' date='Aug 10 2006, 11:22 PM']
Hi,
I am a member of a Traditional Roman Rite "mission" (though we function like a parish): www.materecclesiae.org We are blessed to have an AWESOME priest, Fr. Robert Pasley KHS, who is a diocesan priest. I discovered Mater Ecclesiae a number of years ago while pregnant with my first son, looking for a parish that was orthodox, reverent, etc. Once I went to Mater Ecclesiae I never went back to the Novus Ordo (unless I have to for scheduling reasons or I'm away from home, etc). It's about 20 minutes to a half hour from my house. I would highly, highly recommend that you find an indult or Latin mass community to attend if possible. It's changed my life. Going to one of the three Novus Ordo churches in my lovely, predominantly Catholic towns is usually, well, not the pleasantest of experiences in terms of reverence. Mater Ecclesiae is growing incredibly, primarily with young adults and young families and we have lots of vocations for such a small church. Soon will be our first vocation to the nun-hood (so to speak) and we have several seminarians, and also one priest ordained a year ago in the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter. As far as SSPX is concerned, although I've never attended an SSPX mass, my understanding is that if there is no other option in one's area, attending mass at an SSPX chapel does in fact fulfill one's Sunday mass obligation. Straight from the lips of my parish priest. I think that's similar to if one attended a Greek Orthodox church on Sunday, for example. However it is not permitted on a regular basis, as I understand it. One must attend a church in union with Rome on a regular basis. It is my hope and opinion that we will see a full reunion of at least a part of the SSPX with Rome within my lifetime (I'm 30). I really think so. But that probably won't be without a split within the SSPX over the issue. God bless you, and let us know how your attending the beautiful traditional mass goes. Give yourself time to get used to it...those of us who grew up in the Novus Ordo have a tough time adjusting. It took me not a few months to even vaguely understand what was going on, and there's always more to learn. There's no end to the depth and beauty of the traditional mass.
Julie
[/quote]


Like the way you put it Julie!
But anyways, thought to put in my two cents worth just for clarification sake.

The Novus Ordo or New Mass is the main Mass celebrated here in the U.S. It is of course valid, unless some liberal priest or whoever fouls it up. Which in my opinion can happen at any kind of Mass although probably more frequent at NO.

Now the Mass that is celebrated on EWTN is the Novus Ordo Mass, but it is not done in the vernacular but in Latin which coincidentally that is how the Pope does it.

The Indult Mass is the Latin Mass or Tridentine Mass that the diocese gave their consent to it being said. So it is perfectly fine to go there! And many people find it much more reverent than most NO.

The Tridentine Mass that is said by the SSPX group does fill ones obligation of Sunday Mass. Catholics who go there are under no pain of sin unless of course they go there for the reasons that the SSPX members have. Of course you must be on your guard when going to an SSPX celebrated Mass. And also it probably would be a bad idea to go to any of the other sacraments they offer. But do pray for them to come back into Communion for their are many wonderful priests and lay people who are members, they just need to see the err of their ways and repent.

So that's it,
Bernadette

[Guest phatdaddy]

[quote name='LilyofSaintMaria' post='1042556' date='Aug 13 2006, 12:02 PM']
The Indult Mass is the Latin Mass or Tridentine Mass that the diocese gave their consent to it being said. So it is perfectly fine to go there! And many people find it much more reverent than most NO.

The Tridentine Mass that is said by the SSPX group does fill ones obligation of Sunday Mass. Catholics who go there are under no pain of sin unless of course they go there for the reasons that the SSPX members have. Of course you must be on your guard when going to an SSPX celebrated Mass. And also it probably would be a bad idea to go to any of the other sacraments they offer. But do pray for them to come back into Communion for their are many wonderful priests and lay people who are members, they just need to see the err of their ways and repent.

So that's it,
Bernadette
[/quote]
Bernadette,

OK, but I would like to add a little clarity. Start with the ordinary principal statement of church teaching and then expound on application. For instance:

It is unlawfull to knowingly attend a schismatic chruch service and thus it would be a sin to attend a SSPX TLM in violation of chuirch law. Now, if the circumstance are such that it is not possible to attend a lawful Mass then it would be permissble, to satistfy your Sunday obligation, to attend a SSPX TLM or a greek orthodox Mass, for that matter. Obviously, if one were not aware it was an illict Mass then of course there would be no sin involved.

Even if you say to yourself I don't believe in everything these people do, by your presence you most likely cause scandle, which is sinful. I think it inadvisable to recommend atendance at a SSPX TLM with no clarification.

And as you yourself has said, we pray that the followers of the SSPX TLM see the errors of their ways which means they are in error and, as a matter of fact, they are a schismatic, meaning they have broken with the Church of Rome and do not follow the Pope.
Mr. Ray

[MC Just]

wonderful, cant even talk about the mass used for 2000 years without it turning into a debate? we all know sspx is in schism, but that does not mean those who go to the tridentine mass are in sin..Esp if its an indult.

Man and to force a Catholic to go to a mass which honestly doesnt even resemble Catholicism anymore. (In some places). I agree the novus ordo missae can be done right, I go to a Latin novus ordo missae(the way the mass was intended by VII). Which is very beautiful..

I'm just saying, I'd prefer the Trindentine mass over a mass that in many places resembles more of a hippies meeting than it does the Holy Sacrafice of the Mass. I'm just lucky to have found a novus ordo missae done right.

Edited August 15, 2006 by MC Just

[Sr Mary Catharine OP]

I"ve been reading this thread and hesitant to jump in.
Let me preface my remarks by saying that I attended the TM (Tridentine Mass, or Mass of Pius V) almost daily from the time I was 6 until I entered the monastery 16 years ago. I would also regularly attend the NO (novus Ordo, or Mass of Paul VI) in Latin or English and also the Melkite and Maronite Mass. I'm stating this at the beginning lest someone decide to tell me that I'm a "liberal" or have no experience of either way the Roman Rite is celebrated. Both are the Roman rite, BTW.

The real issue about the Mass and all the pros and cons is not about the Mass itself but about authority and obedience and faith. "Godchild" stated that the NO is a "man made mass". Well, while the Mass and the Sacraments were instituted by Christ all the rites are "man made." The Church has the authority from Christ to determine how the Mass and Sacraments are celebrated. The "form and matter" come down to us from the Tradition of the Church. No matter how many shenanigans go one during a Mass if the priest says the words of consecration with the intention of consecrating the elements of bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ you have a valid Mass. Also, the Mass has gone through many changes over the past 2000 years! For Dominicans, the Tridentine Mass is looked upon as a "newcomer" as our rite is much older.

GodChild said, "I in no way rebel against the Pope and believe in the authority of the Pope .... this does not mean I follow blindly and this does not mean the individual who occupies the seat of the Pope is indeed 'Pope'. "

What? You are saying in effect that YOU are your own authority and that the validity of the See of Peter is determined by your subjective opinion. That is basically protestantism! Either you accept and assent to the the Vicar of Christ or you don't.

Living a life of Faith and living your Catholic Faith is not about feelings or what you like or dislike but about assenting to the person of Christ and believing in His words and following the Gosepl. Jesus didn't institute the Church and then cut the cord and let it drift on its own; the Church is His Body! He told Peter, whatever you bind on earth will held bound in Heaven; whatever you lose on earth will be held lose in Heaven." He gave the authority of the Keys to Peter and to his sucessor. There is absolutely NO REASON to think that Pope Benedict XVI is not the validly elected successor of St. Peter. In fact, we've got one holy man on the Chair of Peter right now! And even if he were not holy and living an immoral life that would NOT invalidate his papal authority. You should read the documents from Vatican I on the infallibility of the Pope.

Godchild, your began this discussion by stating, "I increasingly feel in my heart that I should go to the latin Tridentine Mass to receive our Lord in the Eucharist". That is a worthy and good thing but don't forget, the Mass is primarily to offer the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass (in an unbloody manner), to offer our lives with Christ who is offered Himself to the Father for the salvation of the world. The Mass is not about what we "get" out of it although that is also a part of it. If you go to Mass with the mindset of "getting" you will find it very difficult if the singing isn't right, or the celebrant is an boring preacher, or his style (yes even in the TM) is annoying.

Godchild, please don't misunderstand me. I'm not telling you NOT to go to the Tridentine Mass although I don't think I could advise someone to go to a SSPX chapel unless it was very necessary. Yes, the Mass is valid but illicit. Gemma stated it very well why one shouldn't go to a SSPX chapel.

The TM is beautiful but I've also attended some that were sloppy. I've also attended some reverent, beautiful NO mass such as they have at OLAM and St. Benedict Abbey in Still River. Our Mass here at the Monastery is beautiful although we have a chaplain who doesn't like to sing and I miss having the prayers, preface, etc. sung. We really need to keep praying that the Masses in our parishes will more faithful conform to the norms of the Church. It will come.

I don't know if my remarks have made any sense or have helped. I hope they have. Please forgive me if I came across to forceful but this is a very important issue for your growth in holiness and salvation.

God bless you!
Sr. Mary Catharine

[OLAM Dad]

:applause:

Wow, in a weeks time Sr. Mary Catharine goes from being a silent lurker to being a fire breathing defender of all that is right and true. Way to go! :

Seriously, thanks for your input, I agree totally with what you've said and I don't think you said anything uncharitable (even when you dropped the protestant bomb!).

[be_thou_my_vision]

Thanks for your input Sister, it was very clear.

ps. i really like dominicans

[Guest JeffCR07]

Sr. Mary Catherine, I just want to tell you that reading the orthodoxy in your postis truly a confirmation for me that God is calling me to a priestly vocation within the Dominicans :

[Mary-Kathryn]

Godschild, let me try to help in my own limited way.

I am a convert. On top of that my husband was in the military which meant we traveled...alot! We didn't often have Catholic military priests so we had priests and parishes in different towns. Oh boy did we.

We have experienced every kind of church [from the bizarre, to the breath-taking, to the meeting-space, to the down-right ugly looking] every kind of priest [I won't go there] and some really interesting Masses, But we survived.

We got older, a bit wiser [hubby converted several years after me] and now retired. We are in a rock-solid diocese with no hi-jinks with holy priests which surely helps.

For myself, I am not a person who understands all the laws of The Church or the intricate workings. I recognize if something is goofy--liturgical dancing will set me giggling in a heartbeat--but I couldn't tell you about the thinking stuff. I know I'm uncomfortable with bitter writings or folks who seem to dislike the Church so much they turn round and round but seem to still stay. There are groups out there like that who want to draw people with them down that thorny lonely path away from God. I know whats true though. The Church, the 7 Sacraments, Holy Communion...

When I went with my husband and kids to Rome 3 years ago it was the typical "rainy" season. There are no lines for anything that is why we chose that time. A little drizzle/rain is no big deal for us or the children. Plus it's cheap. ) I was able to watch my children's faces as they walked and prayed where popes and saints had before them. I urge you to listen closer to the quiet of God and Jesus in The Blessed Sacrament and less to earthly voices who would urge you to dismiss the Teachings of The Church. Be as a child and trust! Ask St Therese of Lisieux to intervene and help you. Perhaps you might want to read "The Story of a Soul" her autobiography. Try to get a good translation..not one by Peers though. I have a good study edition here. Her "Little Way" could be of comfort to you during this time. I will come back later and try to offer a good translation with the author. I would offer to mail a book but as a parent I would freak if my child gave out our address over the net. ;o)

Avoid at all costs: SSPX and their people, anyone who objects to Vatican II or the NO Mass, anyone who constantly criticizes priests and churches. You need a moment to take a breath and pray and think. Not to have someone dig you deeper.

Mary-Kathryn {not the Dominican nun---just the mom and Secular carmelite ) }

[cmotherofpirl]

Amen to all tjhe excellent responses

Te deum!

[MC Just]

hey yall sorry about my post, i know it was kind of harsh...I tried to change it but phatmass was freezing. God Bless.

[LilyofSaintMaria]

[quote name='MC Just' post='1043954' date='Aug 15 2006, 04:27 AM']
wonderful, cant even talk about the mass used for 2000 years without it turning into a debate? we all know sspx is in schism, but that does not mean those who go to the tridentine mass are in sin..Esp if its an indult.

Man and to force a Catholic to go to a mass which honestly doesnt even resemble Catholicism anymore. (In some places). I agree the novus ordo missae can be done right, I go to a Latin novus ordo missae(the way the mass was intended by VII). Which is very beautiful..

I'm just saying, I'd prefer the Trindentine mass over a mass that in many places resembles more of a hippies meeting than it does the Holy Sacrafice of the Mass. I'm just lucky to have found a novus ordo missae done right.
[/quote]

Agreed! So I thank Sister Mary Catherine for popping in! Sorry if I made some people blow off some steam, but all I was doing was clarifying the names of the Masses, in my own words, which may not be the same as other people. Honestly, I was having trouble figuring out what all of you were talking about, some using abbreviations and everything, got confusing. So I clarified it for myself and just posted it. That's all. . . I'm just an innocent little girl learning about my Faith.

God bless,
Bernadette