reliance on mary

[Budge]

[quote]. That is why the rich man tried to send Lazarus to his brothers, because he knew that he himself was cut off, but that Lazarus was not.[/quote]

Reread that in the Bible again, Lazarus did not warn the brothers and the scripture basically says if those brothers wont listen to Moses, and Gods prophets why will they listen to anyone else?

[quote]your hatred of the Blessed Virgin outrages you.
[/quote]

I dont hate her. She is blessed, she just doesnt have the same attributes of God. She cannot hear prayers.

[quote]

Well, I suppose St. Paul should probably have asked that question, but he asked the recipients of his letters to pray for him. God wants us to pray for each other. By sharing with us, not out of necessity, but out of charity, the ability to intercede, Christ assured that humans would continue to care for one another and continue to care about true communion, rather than making it simply a "me and Jesus" faith.
[/quote]

Thats with people who are ALIVE on earth with you. And they are NOT intercessors, Jesus is our only intercessor.

Why does Catholicism direct its people to pray to the dead more then with each other?


[quote]Wasn't Jesus walking and talking with a dead guy at the Transfiguration when he spoke to Moses?
According to the bible, are those who die in the fullness of Christ's saving grace really dead?
Are we really departing from the pattern of Christ when we ask prayers of someone alive in Christ?

[/quote]

Jesus is God, different rules...

Those who die and are in heaven have eternal life but they are not alive to us.
[size=5]
Why would the Catholic church rather have members pray to dead men than to the living, all-powerful, prayer-answering God?[/size]

[Budge]

[quote]. That is why the rich man tried to send Lazarus to his brothers, because he knew that he himself was cut off, but that Lazarus was not.[/quote]

Reread that in the Bible again, Lazarus did not warn the brothers and the scripture basically says if those brothers wont listen to Moses, and Gods prophets why will they listen to anyone else?

[quote]your hatred of the Blessed Virgin outrages you.
[/quote]

I dont hate her. She is blessed, she just doesnt have the same attributes of God. She cannot hear prayers.

[quote]

Well, I suppose St. Paul should probably have asked that question, but he asked the recipients of his letters to pray for him. God wants us to pray for each other. By sharing with us, not out of necessity, but out of charity, the ability to intercede, Christ assured that humans would continue to care for one another and continue to care about true communion, rather than making it simply a "me and Jesus" faith.
[/quote]

Thats with people who are ALIVE on earth with you. And they are NOT intercessors, Jesus is our only intercessor.

Why does Catholicism direct its people to pray to the dead more then with each other?


[quote]Wasn't Jesus walking and talking with a dead guy at the Transfiguration when he spoke to Moses?
According to the bible, are those who die in the fullness of Christ's saving grace really dead?
Are we really departing from the pattern of Christ when we ask prayers of someone alive in Christ?

[/quote]

Jesus is God, different rules...

Those who die and are in heaven have eternal life but they are not alive to us.
[size=5]
Why would the Catholic church rather have members pray to dead men than to the living, all-powerful, prayer-answering God?[/size]

[Theologian in Training]

[quote]Those who die and are in heaven have eternal life but they are not alive to us.[/quote]

How so?

[CoffeeCatholic]

[quote name='Budge' post='1041427' date='Aug 11 2006, 10:52 AM']
Reread that in the Bible again, Lazarus did not warn the brothers and the scripture basically says if those brothers wont listen to Moses, and Gods prophets why will they listen to anyone else?[/quote]
Lazarus didn’t warn the brothers not because he couldn’t but because it is a well understood that those souls in eternal damnation can not have their prayers heard or answered. They are shut off from God’s grace, eternally, and therefore Lazarus had no ability to do anything for him because of the man’s soul, not Lazarus’. Therefore, if one of the living brother’s had prayed and asked Lazarus to intercede for the other brother’s, THEN Lazarus could have helped out. But no prayers are answered from souls in hell.

[quote]I dont hate her. She is blessed, she just doesnt have the same attributes of God. She cannot hear prayers. [/quote]
“hearing” and “answering” are very different in nature. Mary can very well hear our prayers, when we speak to her that is. However, she can not answer them. The only thing she can do is promote our case to her son, and, like someone else said “perfect” our prayers.
[quote]Thats with people who are ALIVE on earth with you. And they are NOT intercessors, Jesus is our only intercessor. [/quote]
Here is where you are very confused. Because in this one sentence you have reduced Jesus to merely human, and not at all divine, Yet further down we see that you do know about Christ’s Divinity. You have separated His two natures. Jesus IS God, and therefore His intercession would be illogical as one can not pleed a case to one’s self. However, since Jesus is both fully God, AND fully human, he IS our only mediator, as He is the only HUMAN who can fully communicate with GOD and the only part of GOD who can fully communicate with HUMANS. That is why all prayers go through Him, and not straight to God the Father, because Jesus is the great Mediator. Mediator and Intercessor are different.

[quote]Why does Catholicism direct its people to pray to the dead more then with each other?
Jesus is God, different rules... [/quote]

That is a good and worthy question. However, the answer is very simple. As Christians, we do not believe that anyone who dies in Christ is truly dead, but instead alive! And therefore, those persons who have died faithful to Jesus will experience eternal life. Ok, so now that we’ve knocked out the praying to the dead part, because we are obviously not praying to dead people, but people alive in Christ with dead bodies, you ask why do we do this more than asking our friends and families with LIVING bodies to pray for us? Because those who are alive in Christ at His eternal banquet are perfected in Christ, and are therefore eternally closer to Christ, while the souls here on earth are, even in our most perfected state, still separated from that eternal banquet until we leave this place that has been invaded and is held hostage by the Evil One. A simple and Biblical analogy. According to John 13:21-26, when at the last super it was announced that someone was going to betray the Lord, it was not Peter who asked Jesus, because of the seating arrangement. It was John, the “beloved”, who leaned in and spoke in Christ’s ear, “Who will it be, Lord?” and Christ answered. Now, presumably Peter or any of the other disciples could have asked, but Peter knew that he was too far away to be heard over the hubbub and noise of the feast. So he nodded to John to ask him because John was closer.

John interceded for Peter, doing a favor for him, asking the Lord a question for Him. John was closer to Christ, both physically and spiritually (as he is called the “one whom Jesus loved”) and although Jesus would probably have answered had Peter asked, Peter would have needed to do some heavy screaming, and perhaps gotten several other people from the end of the table to do a “1, 2, 3, ‘HEY JESUS!’” to get his attention. It was much easier just to get John to do it.

So we DO ask our friends here in the Church militant to pray for us. But asking one of Christ’s “Beloved” Saints will afford us a much quicker, and more intimate, reply.




[quote]Those who die and are in heaven have eternal life but they are not alive to us.[/quote]

What you mean is that their bodies have died and are decayed. Or at least most of them (as today is the feast of St. Clare, an incorruptible). But do you honestly believe that your grandmother (if she has died that is, or when she dies) is dead to you? In fact, when we say the phrase so-and-so “is dead to me” that means we are rejecting them and cutting them off from us, not that they are rejecting us and we are cut off from them. In effect, if you believe that your grandmother is dead once her body is placed in the ground, it is being very rude to your gramma. She wants to be part of your life just as much, if not more, now as before, but you are cutting her off, she is “dead to you” and therefore she can not be part of your life even from her place at Christ’s table. No, she does not want that, I am sure. She would want to be able to help you out in the next life just as much as she helped you out when she was on earth, and she is afforded the great honor of being able to do this much easier since she is now at the head of the table, resting on Jesus’ chest.

God Bless you!

ps:

[quote] Why would the Catholic church rather have members pray to dead men than to the living, all-powerful, prayer-answering God?
[/quote]

why not both?


[quote name='Budge' post='1041427' date='Aug 11 2006, 10:52 AM']
Reread that in the Bible again, Lazarus did not warn the brothers and the scripture basically says if those brothers wont listen to Moses, and Gods prophets why will they listen to anyone else?[/quote]
Lazarus didn’t warn the brothers not because he couldn’t but because it is a well understood that those souls in eternal damnation can not have their prayers heard or answered. They are shut off from God’s grace, eternally, and therefore Lazarus had no ability to do anything for him because of the man’s soul, not Lazarus’. Therefore, if one of the living brother’s had prayed and asked Lazarus to intercede for the other brother’s, THEN Lazarus could have helped out. But no prayers are answered from souls in hell.

[quote]I dont hate her. She is blessed, she just doesnt have the same attributes of God. She cannot hear prayers. [/quote]
“hearing” and “answering” are very different in nature. Mary can very well hear our prayers, when we speak to her that is. However, she can not answer them. The only thing she can do is promote our case to her son, and, like someone else said “perfect” our prayers.
[quote]Thats with people who are ALIVE on earth with you. And they are NOT intercessors, Jesus is our only intercessor. [/quote]
Here is where you are very confused. Because in this one sentence you have reduced Jesus to merely human, and not at all divine, Yet further down we see that you do know about Christ’s Divinity. You have separated His two natures. Jesus IS God, and therefore His intercession would be illogical as one can not pleed a case to one’s self. However, since Jesus is both fully God, AND fully human, he IS our only mediator, as He is the only HUMAN who can fully communicate with GOD and the only part of GOD who can fully communicate with HUMANS. That is why all prayers go through Him, and not straight to God the Father, because Jesus is the great Mediator. Mediator and Intercessor are different.

[quote]Why does Catholicism direct its people to pray to the dead more then with each other?
Jesus is God, different rules... [/quote]

That is a good and worthy question. However, the answer is very simple. As Christians, we do not believe that anyone who dies in Christ is truly dead, but instead alive! And therefore, those persons who have died faithful to Jesus will experience eternal life. Ok, so now that we’ve knocked out the praying to the dead part, because we are obviously not praying to dead people, but people alive in Christ with dead bodies, you ask why do we do this more than asking our friends and families with LIVING bodies to pray for us? Because those who are alive in Christ at His eternal banquet are perfected in Christ, and are therefore eternally closer to Christ, while the souls here on earth are, even in our most perfected state, still separated from that eternal banquet until we leave this place that has been invaded and is held hostage by the Evil One. A simple and Biblical analogy. According to John 13:21-26, when at the last super it was announced that someone was going to betray the Lord, it was not Peter who asked Jesus, because of the seating arrangement. It was John, the “beloved”, who leaned in and spoke in Christ’s ear, “Who will it be, Lord?” and Christ answered. Now, presumably Peter or any of the other disciples could have asked, but Peter knew that he was too far away to be heard over the hubbub and noise of the feast. So he nodded to John to ask him because John was closer.

John interceded for Peter, doing a favor for him, asking the Lord a question for Him. John was closer to Christ, both physically and spiritually (as he is called the “one whom Jesus loved”) and although Jesus would probably have answered had Peter asked, Peter would have needed to do some heavy screaming, and perhaps gotten several other people from the end of the table to do a “1, 2, 3, ‘HEY JESUS!’” to get his attention. It was much easier just to get John to do it.

So we DO ask our friends here in the Church militant to pray for us. But asking one of Christ’s “Beloved” Saints will afford us a much quicker, and more intimate, reply.




[quote]Those who die and are in heaven have eternal life but they are not alive to us.[/quote]

What you mean is that their bodies have died and are decayed. Or at least most of them (as today is the feast of St. Clare, an incorruptible). But do you honestly believe that your grandmother (if she has died that is, or when she dies) is dead to you? In fact, when we say the phrase so-and-so “is dead to me” that means we are rejecting them and cutting them off from us, not that they are rejecting us and we are cut off from them. In effect, if you believe that your grandmother is dead once her body is placed in the ground, it is being very rude to your gramma. She wants to be part of your life just as much, if not more, now as before, but you are cutting her off, she is “dead to you” and therefore she can not be part of your life even from her place at Christ’s table. No, she does not want that, I am sure. She would want to be able to help you out in the next life just as much as she helped you out when she was on earth, and she is afforded the great honor of being able to do this much easier since she is now at the head of the table, resting on Jesus’ chest.

God Bless you!

ps:

[quote] Why would the Catholic church rather have members pray to dead men than to the living, all-powerful, prayer-answering God?
[/quote]

why not both?

[Budge]

[quote]There shall not be found among you [any one] that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, [or] that useth divination [or] an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, [b]or a consulter with familiar spirits[/b], or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things [are] an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
Deuteronomy 18:10 (KJV)[/quote]

Familiar spirits means your Grandma by the way.

We are told NOT to talk to anyone who has died on this earth and gone on to WHERE EVER.


Speaking of my grandmother:

[quote]
She wants to be part of your life just as much, if not more, now as before, [b]but you are cutting her off, she is “dead to you” and therefore she can not be part of your life even from her place at Christ’s table. [/b]No, she does not want that, I am sure. She would want to be able to help you out in the next life just as much as she helped you out when she was on earth, and she is afforded the great honor of being able to do this much easier since she is now at the head of the table, resting on Jesus’ chest. [/quote]

According to this logic I may as well whip out a Ouija board and page my own grandmother. The one grandmother I have who died, I do not know where she is, I dont know what her fruits were or even her true religious beliefs. I grew up long distance from her and she died by the time I was 2. I hope she made it to heaven...but she is NOT a part of my life and I have no way of knowing for sure where she ended up. I dont even know what religious beliefs she held or didnt hold.

Saying that dead people are part of your life, especially ones you didnt even know is foolishness. Even in a persons family there are endless generations that lived 200-300-400 years before us. Once someone is dead, they are removed from us and the Bible says this also...[b]{One thing Ive noticed about Catholicism is the tinge of ancestor worship}[/b]

You folks really need to study your Bibles...and stop messing around with familar spirits.


But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.[size=5] And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.[/size]
Luke 16:25-26 (KJV)

Reread that again...

[font="Arial Black"][size=5] And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.[/size]
[/font]

There is a Great GULF FIXED between those who have passed out [all people who have died].

This means grandma cant hear your prayers, this means that Mary cant hear them.[i] I hope Mary cant hear them because thousands of Hail Mary every seconds sounds more like hell then heaven, [/i]and any other human in heaven who has died on earth cant hear you either.

[Donna]

I go about my life, always ignoring my siblings and mother - after all, only father is head of the house.

If I pay them any mind, father will become jealous and I shall be guilty of familial worship.
.......................................................................................................

Thousands of Hail Mary's every day sound like scripture which you claim to venerate.

[avemaria40]

[quote name='Budge' post='1040974' date='Aug 10 2006, 02:35 PM']

I have noticed that Jesus is always protrayed as a Baby--powerless and or dead on the cross, in Catholic pictures with Mary.

[/quote]


I've seen pictures of Jesus and Mary where Jesus isn't a baby or dead on the cross. In quite a few of them, they are standing together in a glorified state.

[dairygirl4u2c]

That great chasm citation with Lazarous is about the chasm between Heaven and Hell. The man being spoken to had died.


I'm not sure what to htink about your cite from Deuteronomy though. It's pretty ambiguous what's being referred to, though it does appear to have some weight in favor of your argument.

But the passage before that citation talksabout how one shouldn't do what sinful countries do. If do what they do is passing through fire as your quote says, then all that talk to teh dead in order to live like a sinful country is wshat is wrong.

If you can clearly tell me what passing throug hfire, and everything else before and after that passage, the meaning of the whole passage, means, then you'll have a foundation for that passage. As it is, it's too uncear, and if anythingmeans different that nyou say it does

Edited August 12, 2006 by dairygirl4u2c

[mortify]

[quote name='Budge' post='1041420' date='Aug 11 2006, 08:48 AM']
I dont hate her. She is blessed, she just doesnt have the same attributes of God. She cannot hear prayers.
Thats with people who are ALIVE on earth with you. And they are NOT intercessors, Jesus is our only intercessor.
[/quote]

How can you forbid what sacred scripture encourages?


"I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, [b]intercession[/b] and thanksgiving be made for everyone"
(1 Tim 2:1)

And what does sacred scripture say about intecession?

(Since you love large font let me hand it to you)

[b][size=4]"This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."
(1 Tim 2:3)[/size][/b]

And as for hearing prayers, how is it that St John was able to hear the prayers of the people of the world while he was in heaven? (revelations 5:13)

[quote]
Why does Catholicism direct its people to pray to the dead more then with each other?
Jesus is God, different rules...
[/quote]

They are not dead but alive in Christ.

What greater things we could do for eachother in glory with Christ than what we do here on earth! When the unholy seek the holy for intercession it shows God our humility and makes Him happy because it shows fraternal love.

[quote]
Those who die and are in heaven have eternal life but they are not alive to us.
[/quote]

Were Moses and Elijah alive during the Transfiguration?

[chris]

Budge...You just dont like to listen do you. You remind me of who solomon warns his sons against in the proverbs. You do alot more aspousing than you do listening. And thats dangerous to your spiritual health and wellbeing. The wise man isnt always the quick one to point out faults.

He who loves instructions, loves knowledge; but he who hates reproof is stupid.(Proverbs 12:1)

You know budge we didnt come to you with our issues. You just stuck your nose in and tried to conform us or portray some silly oppinion.

We trust that when Christ tells us that the church is the pillar and foundations and that the gates of hell will not prevail against it that we can have faith in our church and what she teaches. NOT YOU. The church has been teaching this stuff for over 2000 years when Christ established it in 33AD your Christianity has only been around for a few years. We have been around since the time of Christ. You around the times of Luther and Calvin, 1517. Thats it. You dont know more than us. And its not a battle to win us over. Stop causeing another brother/sister to stumble because even Jesus warns people of that.

[corban711]

{One thing Ive noticed about Catholicism is the tinge of ancestor worship}


you may have noticed this about individual Catholics who do not know or practice their faith...but you surely did not notice this about Catholicism because it does not teach this. I would say rather that you have seen Catholics pray to "dead people" as you refer to them and mistakenly believe they are borderline worshipping their ancestors.



btw...anyone else notice this thread has moved quite a bit from reliance on Mary specifically to a debate about whether we worship dead people? i like the question of reliance/pray to Mary much better i love Mary! maybe another thread is needed? i don't know...there really hasn't been a lot of posts so maybe its not a big deal..

[CoffeeCatholic]

[quote name='Budge' post='1041676' date='Aug 11 2006, 05:38 PM']
Familiar spirits means your Grandma by the way. [/quote]

no, familiar spirits means demons. That's quite certain from the original translation. You have this point very wrong


[quote]According to this logic I may as well whip out a Ouija board and page my own grandmother. [/quote]

if you didn't need ouija board to speak with your grandmother before her death,why now? to use one would be to loose faith in the Lord's word that your grandmother will hear you.

[quote] The one grandmother I have who died, I do not know where she is, I dont know what her fruits were or even her true religious beliefs. I grew up long distance from her and she died by the time I was 2. I hope she made it to heaven...but she is NOT a part of my life and I have no way of knowing for sure where she ended up. I dont even know what religious beliefs she held or didnt hold. [/quote]
I am truly sorry. I have a grandmother in a simalar situation although still living. I will pray for the soul of your grandmother tonight.

[quote]{One thing Ive noticed about Catholicism is the tinge of ancestor worship}[/quote]
one thing about protestants is that they are the only, yes ONLY, religion on this planet that does not venerate the deceased. and the reason? Luther didn't like that the church had so many statues of Saints because he thought it was poor use of their funds. Monetarily, he was probably right, we could have been helping the plague folk and what not. But seriously, that's a horrible reason to not want to continue a relationship with a loved on, simply because some dead guy didn't like where the money was going.

[quote]You folks really need to study your Bibles...[/quote]

You assume i haven't, when in fact I spent 20 years as a "Sola Scriptura" Christian just like yourself. Oh, and there are 10 books that I can bet I'm way more familiar with than you are. :-D

[quote]and stop messing around with familar spirits. [/quote]
i'm not, but thanks for the advice

To all readers: The following is a near perfect example of the "Big Lie Philosophy" as used and described by Hitler during the war. In this philosophy, the person states the same "lie" over and over again, as loud and abrupt as possible, until finally people give in and say "oh, well i've heard it so many times, it must be true". It works. Please watch out. Our society uses this philosophy against us quite a lot. Imagine what the world would be like if we weren't bombarded with people telling us that condoms were great every 10 seconds. Nobody would use them, because they're horrible!

To Budge: I'm sorry you didn't understand my point that I already stated on this verse. If you would like it explained more clearly, please let me know, otherwise, please re-read my above comment, and if you have a proper retorte of that arguement, let me know.
[quote]
But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.
Luke 16:25-26 (KJV)

Reread that again...

And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.

There is a Great GULF FIXED between those who have passed out [all people who have died].[/quote]


[quote]This means grandma cant hear your prayers, this means that Mary cant hear them. I hope Mary cant hear them because thousands of Hail Mary every seconds sounds more like hell then heaven, and any other human in heaven who has died on earth cant hear you either.
[/quote]

You forget, I never said that my grandmother could or would answer my prayers. I simply said that she could hear them. This means that she is able to listen to me when i speak, and to pray for me just like she did when she was alive. it makes perfect sence for her to do so, as we are creatures created to love and care for one another, and that should and will not stop after death, providing we get to heaven. In fact, since our true nature is but an image of God's, then it will be magnified with Him, which means we get to love and care for all creatures in heaven and on earth even more than before! How wonderful!!!!

[pyranima]

[quote name='Budge' post='1040974' date='Aug 10 2006, 12:35 PM']
Many Marian Catholics I know of open the door to the occult with their constant prayers to Mary.

On my board we have about 3 or 4 Marian Catholics who have shown up over the years, all of them attest to visions and dead people [actually demons because the Bible says there is an unbreakable veil between living and dead] showing up in their living rooms.

There is a reason for that.

How do you know you are praying to Mary, how can you know she can hear you? Does Mary answer your prayers. You have made her the center of your heart. God is a jealous God, there is no room for any other. You can delude yourself and say here, I am getting closer to Jesus by saying Hail Mary this and Mary this and that, but it is simply not true.

I have noticed that Jesus is always protrayed as a Baby--powerless and or dead on the cross, in Catholic pictures with Mary.

Why do you need Mary's intercession when you have God who made the entire universe, at your disposal to pray too?

This is another thing, Catholicism so twists the nature of God, they make God out to be someone that needs his mother to approach him to appease him.

You see Mary as the caring one, and Jesus as the one to be appeased who wont listen to you.

How sad is that.

This is the Jesus I believe in...
[size=5]
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, [b]all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
[/b]
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and [b]ye shall find rest unto your souls.[/b]
[/size]

Why are you all RESTING in Mary?
[/quote]
where is your board?

[memory-singer]

[quote name='Tarcisius' post='1040843' date='Aug 10 2006, 06:53 AM']
All grace comes from Christ through Mary. To ask her first is better for she will perfect your prayer before presenting it to her son. Asking for her help is different than anyone else, she is far more perfect, loving and everything else. When you feel like It is Mary who is doing something for you then you are wrong, she is only getting her son to do it for you.
[/quote]

Whenever I pray to Mary, I get the answer she gave to the servants at Cana: Do whatever He tells you.

Works for me.

[Lounge Daddy]

this is a good thread - BUMP