reliance on mary

[dairygirl4u2c]

Sometimes I still pray to Mary. Like it's been said, asking her to pray isn't any different than asking others to pray for you. Sometimes my mindset bothers me though. When Mary magnifies Jesus, it's good, but sometimes it seems like I pray to Jesus for certain things, but in the back of my mind I'm thinking, if I really wanna get things done, I'll pray a lot more to Mary. That troubles me...

thoughts?

[mortify]

Consider this passage:

"Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray. Is anyone happy? Let him sing songs of praise. Is any one of you sick?[b] He should call the elders of the church to pray over him[/b] and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord." (James 5: 13-14)

But why?? Isn't Jesus the only mediator? Can't I just pray to Him for healing? Why would I call a bunch of men to pray for me?

This is why:

"The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective." (James 5: 16)

And how much greater is the prayer and intercession of the Mother of God!!

When we ask a Saint to pray for us (that is what we mean by praying to saints, btw, asking them for intercesssion) we are saying to God, "Lord, I am not Holy, so I am asking someone who is Holy, and who served you in ways that I have failed, to intercede behalf of myself. It is You who ultimately answers my prayer though they intercede for me."

Now why is intercession a good thing and pleases God (1 tim 2:3)? Because when we pray for eachother, and seek eachother's intercession, we are infact loving our neighbor; we are showing fraternal love for one another. We are helping eachother get to kingdom of heaven. (ever hear of the communion of saints? )


anyway...yea...dont feel bad. You prolly feel bad because you've heard so many bad things about Mary and asking her for intercession that its been ingrained in your heart.

I'll "intercede" for you

[pyranima]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1040235' date='Aug 9 2006, 11:06 AM']
Sometimes I still pray to Mary. Like it's been said, asking her to pray isn't any different than asking others to pray for you. Sometimes my mindset bothers me though. When Mary magnifies Jesus, it's good, but sometimes it seems like I pray to Jesus for certain things, but in the back of my mind I'm thinking, if I really wanna get things done, I'll pray a lot more to Mary. That troubles me...

thoughts?
[/quote]


Praying to Mary is not bad, there are many Protestants that pray to Mary. however to pray to mary with the mindset you suggest is not good. we ask marry to interceed for us with the one intercessor between God and Man. We ask her to go to Jesus WITH us NOT for us. it is true that as his mother Mary would be more influental than all the other Saints combine, but She is still only human. have you read "true devotion to Mary" that is a good book that i think will help you to grow in love with Christ through the blessed Mother.

Pray this pray to Mary

"Holy Mother of God for me in your womb that i may come to know and love your son Jesus Christ more pure and more fully."

Remember you can't go to Mary without her pointing to Jesus.

[Tarcisius]

All grace comes from Christ through Mary. To ask her first is better for she will perfect your prayer before presenting it to her son. Asking for her help is different than anyone else, she is far more perfect, loving and everything else. When you feel like It is Mary who is doing something for you then you are wrong, she is only getting her son to do it for you.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1040235' date='Aug 9 2006, 02:06 PM']
Sometimes I still pray to Mary. Like it's been said, asking her to pray isn't any different than asking others to pray for you. Sometimes my mindset bothers me though. When Mary magnifies Jesus, it's good, but sometimes it seems like I pray to Jesus for certain things, but in the back of my mind I'm thinking, if I really wanna get things done, I'll pray a lot more to Mary. That troubles me...

thoughts?
[/quote]
You cannot love Mary too much, so long as you love her Son more. Don't be scrupulous about giving the right "time" to each person you invoke in your prayers. Prayer comes from the heart.

[Budge]

[quote]When Mary magnifies Jesus, it's good, but sometimes it seems like I pray to Jesus for certain things, but in the back of my mind I'm thinking, if I really wanna get things done, I'll pray a lot more to Mary. That troubles me...[/quote]

You are troubled because the Holy Spirit is trying to warn you that we are to go to Jesus Christ alone in prayer. Jesus is our ONLY MEDIATOR. That is what the Bible teaches. Mary is in heaven, but Mary cant help you. Do you believe Mary knows your heart like God does? It is impossible for Mary to know the heart of millions of people, for she is human and not omniprecenst like God

[size=5]1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;.[/size]

Can Mary know your heart like Jesus can and the deepest desires of your soul?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1040851' date='Aug 10 2006, 11:07 AM']
You are troubled because the Holy Spirit is trying to warn you that we are to go to Jesus Christ alone in prayer. Jesus is our ONLY MEDIATOR. That is what the Bible teaches. Mary is in heaven, but Mary cant help you. Do you believe Mary knows your heart like God does? It is impossible for Mary to know the heart of millions of people, for she is human and not omniprecenst like God

[size=5]1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;.[/size]

Can Mary know your heart like Jesus can and the deepest desires of your soul?
[/quote]
1. Jesus is the sole mediator. All other intercessors, by virtue or their Baptism, are incorporated into His priesthood (see Peter) and therefore are able to share in His mediatorship. They are not independent mediators; they are only mediators in as much as they are incorporated into Christ, who is the one mediator. All intercessions go through Him.

2. It is God's omniscience, not His omnipresence, that allows Him to know all hearts.

3. Mary is human and therefore finite. This is most certainly true. However, so is creation. Therefore, the number and depth of all hearts is finite. Therefore, if God makes Mary able to read the deepest desires of every soul, He is not violating her limited capacity as a creature. Rather, He is making her a powerful enough creature to see all creation. This is not inconsistent with her limits, since, as I have stated, creation is finite.

4. Mary's heart is bound to Christ's (cf. the words of Simeon). If God allows, she may certainly know all hearts as her Son does.

[avemaria40]

When I ask the Mother of God to pray for me, I end up closer to Jesus. Why? Because Mary always points to Jesus. I found that saying the Rosary helped me grow closer to God and that's always a good thing.


Before I became Catholic, when I learned about the saints, I always asked for the intercession of St. Joan of Arc (still do) and one day I realized, you don't give them worship, you are only asking them to pray for you. It's the same with Mary. God alone I adore and worship, but it doesn't mean I can't ask anyone (on heaven or on earth) to pray for me.

Edited August 10, 2006 by avemaria40

[Budge]

Many Marian Catholics I know of open the door to the occult with their constant prayers to Mary.

On my board we have about 3 or 4 Marian Catholics who have shown up over the years, all of them attest to visions and dead people [actually demons because the Bible says there is an unbreakable veil between living and dead] showing up in their living rooms.

There is a reason for that.

How do you know you are praying to Mary, how can you know she can hear you? Does Mary answer your prayers. You have made her the center of your heart. God is a jealous God, there is no room for any other. You can delude yourself and say here, I am getting closer to Jesus by saying Hail Mary this and Mary this and that, but it is simply not true.

I have noticed that Jesus is always protrayed as a Baby--powerless and or dead on the cross, in Catholic pictures with Mary.

Why do you need Mary's intercession when you have God who made the entire universe, at your disposal to pray too?

This is another thing, Catholicism so twists the nature of God, they make God out to be someone that needs his mother to approach him to appease him.

You see Mary as the caring one, and Jesus as the one to be appeased who wont listen to you.

How sad is that.

This is the Jesus I believe in...
[size=5]
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, [b]all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
[/b]
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and [b]ye shall find rest unto your souls.[/b]
[/size]

Why are you all RESTING in Mary?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

First off, this is quite a shift in your argument. Do you mean to abandon your previous points?

[quote name='Budge' post='1040974' date='Aug 10 2006, 03:35 PM']
Many Marian Catholics I know of open the door to the occult with their constant prayers to Mary.

On my board we have about 3 or 4 Marian Catholics who have shown up over the years, all of them attest to visions and dead people [actually demons because the Bible says there is an unbreakable veil between living and dead] showing up in their living rooms.[/quote]

You can't just come here and tell us something like this that could be very well just made up. Additionally, there are some who may be tricked by demons. It happens. St. Padre Pio, however, was able to tell when an apparition of Mary was really the devil. If God deems you worthy of a vision, He won't let you be fooled...and if you are, it's in good conscience. By the way, the saints aren't dead, they're alive in Christ. They do not fall behind the veil. That is why the rich man tried to send Lazarus to his brothers, because he knew that he himself was cut off, but that Lazarus was not.

[quote]How do you know you are praying to Mary, how can you know she can hear you? Does Mary answer your prayers. You have made her the center of your heart. God is a jealous God, there is no room for any other. You can delude yourself and say here, I am getting closer to Jesus by saying Hail Mary this and Mary this and that, but it is simply not true.[/quote]

I am praying for Mary's intercession because that is my intention. I can't pray for so-and-so's intercession when I really meant to pray for another person's. The reason this can't happen is because God is allowing the prayers to come through; He's operating the switchboard, as it were. What you are saying is that God misdirects prayers. Now, I could worship something that isn't God, thinking it was, but that's irrelevant because we don't worship Mary.

[quote]I have noticed that Jesus is always protrayed as a Baby--powerless and or dead on the cross, in Catholic pictures with Mary.[/quote]

Jesus came as a baby and willingly died on the cross. I don't see how portraying Him in a way He Himself chose to be is a bad thing. When He is seen as a baby in Mary's arms, the point isn't that Mary is much greater, but that God was so wonderful that He humbled Himself even to the point of suckling at a human's breast. When He is seen on the cross with His mother weeping, the point isn't that He dies and she still lives, but that He, her God, has died for her, and she is grieved. You see these images and your hatred of the Blessed Virgin outrages you.

[quote]Why do you need Mary's intercession when you have God who made the entire universe, at your disposal to pray too?[/quote]

Well, I suppose St. Paul should probably have asked that question, but he asked the recipients of his letters to pray for him. God wants us to pray for each other. By sharing with us, not out of necessity, but out of charity, the ability to intercede, Christ assured that humans would continue to care for one another and continue to care about true communion, rather than making it simply a "me and Jesus" faith.

[quote]This is another thing, Catholicism so twists the nature of God, they make God out to be someone that needs his mother to approach him to appease him.[/quote]

That is simply not true. God doesn't need anything. However, out of His great love for His most perfect creature, He listens willingly to her and lavishes her with honors. She, likewise, asks for nothing but those things in accordance with His will.

[quote]You see Mary as the caring one, and Jesus as the one to be appeased who wont listen to you.[/quote]

That's just foolishness.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i do think you have some points about how catholics approach jesus, in fear, and in a way that they don't think anything will get done if they go to Him alone.

but where does the bible say there is an unbreakable veil between the living and the dead?

also, if you can't pray to mary that's one thing, but what do you think about asking others to pray with you for you? what if someone said why bother that when you can just pray to jesus?

[Theologian in Training]

Jesus is the Lord of the living and the dead. It happened when He destroyed death by rising again, thereby restoring the severance that occurred. Therefore, those that are alive and those that have died are no different, they can both intercede on our behalf. This is what is meant by the communion of the saints, for, if we ask friends and family here on earth to pray for us, why should it be any different to ask those in Heaven to do the same?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Budge' post='1040851' date='Aug 10 2006, 10:07 AM']
You are troubled because the Holy Spirit is trying to warn you that we are to go to Jesus Christ alone in prayer. Jesus is our ONLY MEDIATOR. That is what the Bible teaches. Mary is in heaven, but Mary cant help you. Do you believe Mary knows your heart like God does? It is impossible for Mary to know the heart of millions of people, for she is human and not omniprecenst like God

[size=5]1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;.[/size]

Can Mary know your heart like Jesus can and the deepest desires of your soul?
[/quote]
So you are afraid to ask anyone to pray for you? Are you afraid Jesus will be jealous or something?
There is one mediator, but there certainly be billions of intercessors
You forget we are members of the Body of Christ by virtue of our baptism, and we are instructed to ask for prayers.
Mary doesn't have to "know" my mind to pray for me.

[jswranch]

Budge,
Wasn't Jesus walking and talking with a dead guy at the Transfiguration when he spoke to Moses?
According to the bible, are those who die in the fullness of Christ's saving grace really dead?
Are we really departing from the pattern of Christ when we ask prayers of someone alive in Christ?

[Resurrexi]

[quote]I have noticed that Jesus is always protrayed as a Baby--powerless and or dead on the cross, in Catholic pictures with Mary.[/quote]

No, that's far from the truth. After the Crucifix, the most popular Catholic holy image is the Sacred Heart, in which Christ shows His heart to us. He is in no way powerless in that picture. He is also often portrayed as Christ the King, which focus on His omnipotence and Divine Nature, rather than His human nature.

[quote]What you are saying is that God misdirects prayers. Now, I could worship something that isn't God, thinking it was, but that's irrelevant because we don't worship Mary.[/quote]

Actually we [i]do[/i] worship Mary. The root of the word "worship" is "worth ship" or the state of being worthy. In it's most literal sense, worship means "veneration" rather than "adoration". I could say I worshipped my spouse if I had one, I can say I worship my father, I could say I worship the Pope, I could say I worship the wood of the Cross and it wouldn't be idolatary, because it would simply mean that I honour them and greatly respect them. You've probably heard this before, Budge, but here's what Catholics do. They worship/venerate/dulise Saints. They superworship/extravenerate/hyperdualise Mary as Dei Genetrix/God Bearer/Theotokos. The only two words in the English language that can describe the great praise, glorification, worship, and blessing we give to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit the Trinity One in Substance and Undivided are Adoration and Latria. Woship/Veneration/Dulia is infinitely below Adoration/Latria. We give to Deus more Praise, Thanksgiving and Worship than we would give to ten thousand Dei Genetrixi (is that the right word ending to make Genetrix plural/posessive?)