How to explain that

[heavenseeker]

To many times I run into someone that thinks we worship idols even though we dont. I have tried to explain to them that we don't and that how what it is they call idols originated. The problem is that I don't know the entier stories behind the different tools of prayer. One of the newist ones that I have heard is that haveing Jesus on the cross is an idol. If that were true then wouldn't all christians be idol worshipers just by the cross its self?

[ReinnieR]

did you try this first??

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat_id/115"]http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat_id/115[/url]

[uruviel]

believing the worishiping Christ on the cross is an idol doesn't make any sense. Because, when we worship Christ on the cross, it's just the same as worshiping any other Christ. Christ is the same being whereever He is, we don't 'worship' the cross. I don't quite understand what you mean by idols either, are you saying that people believe we're worshiping the statue's and stuff? If not please clarify. God Bless,
In Christ -uruviel

[DAF]

It begins with their definition of 'idol.' Usually it means little more to them than being a trigger word, something that sounds bad.

American Heritage defines "Idol" as:
[i]An image used as an object of worship.
A false god.
One that is adored, often blindly or excessively.
Something visible but without substance. [/i]

Well to us, statues of saints and such aren't idols, because we don't use them as [i]objects[/i] of worship, they're reminders and aids to worship.
We don't believe that the statues are divine; they're not 'false gods'
the third one isn't really relevant to us.
the statues themselves are visible to us, but they certainly don't lack substance, they're representations of the saints and such, that's certainly not lacking substance.

When asked again, ask them what their definition of 'idol' is. If it's not the standard english version like we have here, then you can go from there. If they use the standard english version, then you can argue logically, like I have presented here.

And yeah, read that link from ReinnieR, good stuff.

[heavenseeker]

ok that defenatly helps but can you pull out exact examples?

[uruviel]

exactly, we do not worship the statues themselves, we worship the persons or beings they represent. If that is what their definition is of 'idol'. That is mine.

[heavenseeker]

their definition is any religious painting, carving, statue...extera.
Unless you meen that each statue is of Jesus then we do not worship wh ois represented by each of them.

[ReinnieR]

[quote name='uruviel' post='1039498' date='Aug 7 2006, 10:23 PM']
exactly, we do not worship the statues themselves, we worship the persons or beings they represent. If that is what their definition is of 'idol'. That is mine.
[/quote]
if it's the image of Christ

but if it is the image of our virgin mother. we don't worship her. we honor her.

statues help us remember them

[DAF]

It's 'et cetera' meaning 'and the rest' not extera, lol.

If their definition of 'idol' is any religious painting carving or statues, then you need to inform them that their understanding of idol is mistaken. The definition of idol is up there (my last post), and as we've pointed out, that definition isn't relevant when speaking of Catholics and statues and such.

And you're right. Unless the representation is of God, then we don't worship who it represents. If it's of the saints of whatever, then we praise, honor, and pray to them. That's simply not idolatry.

A common way to explain it goes like this: You keep pictures of your friends and relatives in your wallet. Do you worship this pictures? No. Do you worship who is in the pictures? No. The pictures are just reminders. Nothing more or less.

What sort of examples are you looking for?

[Mateo el Feo]

My favorite reply is to ask if they thought it would be idolatrous for a believer to pray for healing in front of a bronze statue of a snake ([url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/numbers/numbers21.htm#v8"]Numbers 21:8[/url]).

PS: For those worrying about idolatry, here's the worst idol of all:
[size=7][color="green"]$$$[/color][/size]
How often do we see people kneeling in submission to this idol? How often are we ourselves guilty of serving this false god? ([url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/1timothy/1timothy6.htm#v10"]1 Timothy 6:10[/url])

Edited August 8, 2006 by Mateo el Feo

[DAF]

Well yeah, but I think the debate here is more of a conscious worship. Money is an idol in one sense, but we don't consider it divine or actively seek to please it, or the other things one does for a deity.

Money being an idol is a metaphor, we're talking about accusations of real idol worship.

Edited August 8, 2006 by DAF

[thessalonian]

Their idea of worship is that if you bow down before something it is automatically worship. Well then David worshipped Bethsheba when he bowed down before her. Issac told Jacob the whole nation was going to bow down before them.

Gen.27
[29] Let peoples serve you,
and nations bow down to you.
Be lord over your brothers,
and may your mother's sons bow down to you.
Cursed be every one who curses you,
and blessed be every one who blesses you!"

This by the Holy Spirit speaking through him. Was the Holy Spirit telling him the whole nation was going to worship him? I don't think so. In Gen 49 Jacob's brothers do bown down before him. It is in honor of his position. Most certainly they don't see him as a god.

Would your friends say that the Jews were worshipping the Ark of the Covenant if they saw the seen in Josh 7 where Joshua and all the elders bowed down before the ark and prayed? Would they have pointed the finger and screamed idolatry? I hope not because the one true God granted them victory the next day, pulling off a miracle.

The Cathollic Church allows for honor of images and the people they represent. Adortion is to God alone.

From the catechism:
"1192 Sacred images in our churches and homes are intended to awaken and nourish our faith in the mystery of Christ. Through the icon of Christ and his works of salvation, it is he whom we adore. Through sacred images of the holy Mother of God, of the angels and of the saints, we venerate the persons represented.

2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, "the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype," and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it." The honor paid to sacred images is a "respectful veneration," not the adoration due to God alone:

Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is. "

We recognize in the people who submitted their lives to Christ his power manifest by the great things that they did. That gives honor and glory to HIM!
For more from the CCC search for the words adoration, adore, worship here if you like:

[url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm"]http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm[/url]

It should also be noted that Protestants have separated out the command "thou shall make no graven image" in to its own commandment. However in the context of scripture it is clear it goes with having no other gods before us. The making of images that are not seen as gods is actually commanded by God himself in several places. For instance there are cheribum over the mercy seat of the Ark of the Covenant (ex 25) and in the temple as well. The bronze serpant of Numb 16 was mentioned above and there were images of bulls and other animals in the temple as well.

Worship is of the heart. These people are looking at externals but God alone can judge worship. Images and bowing down can be worship but it is not neccessarily.

Hope that helps.

Blessings

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='DAF' post='1039545' date='Aug 8 2006, 01:38 AM']
Well yeah, but I think the debate here is more of a conscious worship. Money is an idol in one sense, but we don't consider it divine or actively seek to please it, or the other things one does for a deity.

Money being an idol is a metaphor, we're talking about accusations of real idol worship.[/quote]
Because it is so much more powerful than traditional pagan worship, I wouldn't write off money as being a mere metaphor. In addition to the warnings of Holy Scriptures, the Catechism names the love of money as a form of idolatry. Quoting the Catechism, in the section of the Ten Commandments ([url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt1.htm#2113"]link[/url]):
[quote name='CCC' date=' Paragraph 2113']Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. [b]Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God[/b], whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, [b]money[/b], etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon." Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast" refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.[/quote]

[DAF]

It's a form of idolatry, but it's not the kind we're discussing here, in this thread.

Getting back to the topic:
Taking CCC 2123 at "sola catechisma" the protestants would have a point at our statues and such being idol worship. We do honor and revere the saints, but we're not going sola catechisma so we know we're not doing it in place of God, we're doing it for the greater glory of God.

Edited August 8, 2006 by DAF

[heavenseeker]

hey yall thanks for the help, its helped