faith must result in...

[dairygirl4u2c]

i know there is some ambiguity in those, but please read for intent and don't skew the meanings. apologies if truly bad writing or thinking. insert other comments freely.

please vote regardless of what i say here first. it'd seem a tyipical fundy prot would characterize the choices this way if they were positions of the CC.

First one. The damnable heresy of the CC.
Second. The glory of the gosple after all.
Third. Not necessarily wrong, but not even teaching the gosple.

thoughts?

[pyranima]

I would state it best this way, Salvation is a Grace from God(Period). The Grace of Salvation is totally an act of God upon us the Human race/indifiduals.

Unless we can agree on that much there is nothing to further to be said. If we can agree on that (Which i believe we can), then it is simple enough to convey the true Catholic belief of Salvation.

Salvation is by Grace Through Faith AND Works of Charity (not of the law which Paul distinguished in his letters). Put another way God gives us the Gift of Salvation, however he does not force it down our throats. When we are given the Gift of Grace it is by an act of love that we have Faith. thus Faith is something that must be done, it is my response to the Gift God has Given me. think of it another way. God gives you a present, now you can refuse the gift God has given you, or you can accept the gift (which you have not earned) and unwrap it. our accpeting it and futher unwrapping it is our cooperation with God. this it is not by OUR works but by our COOPERATION with God's gift (Thus God) that we are Saved.

Faith alone is simply not enough as we see in James 2:24 "We see that a man is justified by works and not by Faith alone" however this verse must be taken in context as we see Paul tells us that we are not saved by anything we can do OURSELVES, the answer to this problem lays in Eph2:8-10 it is in Eph 2:8-10 that we see the Catholic understanding of Salvation

[dairygirl4u2c]

Martin Luther says that we are saved by faith alone, but faith is never alone. In other words, works are necesary. But in what sense is I think the fine line. Do you think what you jsut said goes against his beliefs? How would you distinguish between Caths and Prots? I think my distinguishments do a pretty good job. How does what you just said fit into my options. If it doesn't, what's wrong with it?

(apparently something is as no one is voting)

Edited August 5, 2006 by dairygirl4u2c

[pyranima]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1037666' date='Aug 4 2006, 05:38 PM']
Martin Luther says that we are saved by faith alone, but faith is never alone. In other words, works are necesary. But in what sense is I think the fine line. Do you think what you jsut said goes against his beliefs? How would you distinguish between Caths and Prots? I think my distinguishments do a pretty good job. How does what you just said fit into my options. If it doesn't, what's wrong with it?

(apparently something is as no one is voting)
[/quote]


If you change your polling options i will vote, the problem is that you have made an error in the options you have provided so in charity i will try to offer you a polling option that is Catholic so we Orthodox Catholics can vote (i was disappointed i could not vote when i first saw this thread.). the options you should offer goes as follows: you are saved by Grace. contingent on cooperation in Faith and works.

as to address the Issue of Matin Luther:

Martin Luther Changed the bible, as in he added to the bible to fit his pretext, he also considered the book of James, Hebrews, Rev., and i think one other to be "Apocrypha ". Martin Luther taught a false doctrine, what you are saying Martin Luther taught yes it is true he did teach AT TIMES, but there were other times when he taught you could do whatever you wanted to do. (The bulk of Luthers texts still remain in German as translating them would do quite a bit if harm to his rep.) the Fact is that Just like the Council of Trent says teaching that you are saved by Faith alone goes explicitly against scripture. to say you are saved by only faith and works play no part is to teach in the spirit of AntiChrist. [b]AND[/b] Just as the council of Trent teaches to say that you can save yourself Through works of yourself (which is different than works of the Holy Spirit) is explicitly against Scripture; to teach that you can save yourself is to teach in the spirit of AntiChrist.

Yes what you just said does go against Martin Luthers belief as he taught "I can fornicate 10,000 times a day and will not loose my salvation", we know from Scripture that this IS NOT TRUE. Martin Luther taught that we are carp hills covered in snow. there are two problems with this. 1 if you walk on the snow your still going to step in carp. and 2 Rev. tells us that "nothing unclean can enter heaven". if we are not changed but remain carp like luther and Calvin say then we cannot enter heaven because carp is carp if you cover it in snow or not.

now to answer your question about how i distinguish between Catholic and Protestant belief of justification. Protestants do not all hold the same view on salvation and justification, that must first be said so i will give some common views on salvation and justification.

Protestant views:

1 You are saved by saying a sinners prayer once you say this prayer you can never loose your salvation. Justification plays no role in salvation.
2 you are saved by Faith, works are the result of "true faith"

The Orthodox Christian understanding of salvation is Rather different from the first one but somewhat close to the second one. the problem comes when it comes to saying "true faith" James 2:24 says "we see that a man is saved by works and not by Faith alone" and we see James 2:14 says "14(A)What use is it, (B)my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?". what we do not see James 2:14 say is "if someone has true faith" or "Genuine faith" or whatever no its clear that you need both and not either or.

The main difference between what Catholics say vs what Protestants say is that Catholics teach what they believe while Protestants do not teach what they believe. Protestants say "Faith alone" and tack on "if you have true faith then you will have works" when you decrypt what this coded message means is "Faith and works". Catholics teach out right you need both Faith and Works and that BOTH of these come from God and that no one can have either faith or works unless it comes from God. it comes down to Protestants what to create a new wording for an old definition where as we Catholics say "Why fix whats not broken".

the bible says "you are not saved by Faith alone"


I am sure you have the Catechism of the Catholic Church if not you can read it online at the vatican website.

however because you are a Portestant i will suggest the three part Byzintine Catechism Light for Life. it will use Language that you will find more pleasing to explain Catholic beliefs.
[url="http://www.theobooks.org/index.asp?PageAction=PRODSEARCH&txtSearch=light%20for%20life%20catechism&Page=15"]Light For Life[/url]

Here is what the Compendium of the Catechims of the Catholic Church says

GRACE AND JUSTIFICATION

422. What is justification?

1987-1995
2017-2020

Justification is the most excellent work of God's love. It is the merciful and freely-given act of God which takes away our sins and makes us just and holy in our whole being. It is brought about by means of the grace of the Holy Spirit which has been merited for us by the passion of Christ and is given to us in Baptism. Justification is the beginning of the free response of man, that is, faith in Christ and of cooperation with the grace of the Holy Spirit.

423. What is the grace that justifies?

1996-1998
2005
2021

That grace is the gratuitous gift that God gives us to make us participants in his trinitarian life and able to act by his love. It is called habitual, sanctifying or deifying grace because it sanctifies and divinizes us. It is supernatural because it depends entirely on God’s gratuitous initiative and surpasses the abilities of the intellect and the powers of human beings. It therefore escapes our experience.

424. What other kinds of grace are there?

1999-2000
2003-2004
2023-2024

Besides habitual grace, there are actual graces (gifts for specific circumstances), sacramental graces (gifts proper to each sacrament), special graces or charisms (gifts that are intended for the common good of the Church) among which are the graces of state that accompany the exercise of ecclesial ministries and the responsibilities of life.

425. What is the relationship between grace and human freedom?

2001-2002

Grace precedes, prepares and elicits our free response. It responds to the deep yearnings of human freedom, calls for its cooperation and leads freedom toward its perfection.

426. What is merit?

2006-2010
2025-2026

In general merit refers to the right to recompense for a good deed. With regard to God, we of ourselves are not able to merit anything, having received everything freely from him. However, God gives us the possibility of acquiring merit through union with the love of Christ, who is the source of our merits before God. The merits for good works, therefore must be attributed in the first place to the grace of God and then to the free will of man.

427. What are the goods that we can merit?

2010-2011
2027

Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods, suitable for us, can be merited in accordance with the plan of God. No one, however, can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion and justification.

428. Are all called to Christian holiness?

2012-2016
2028-2029

All the faithful are called to Christian holiness. This is the fullness of Christian life and the perfection of charity and it is brought about by intimate union with Christ and, in him, with the most Holy Trinity. The path to holiness for a Christian goes by way of the cross and will come to its fulfillment in the final resurrection of the just, in which God will be all in all.