Of Free Will

[Aloysius]

I will stand by the statement that if they fall away (from salvation) - they never knew Christ.

except they truly thought they knew Christ. so this falling away is still possible for anyone, and they'll just later be declared to have never truly known Christ no matter how deep their prayer life was or how much they thought they knew Him.

[Circle_Master]

this has degraded into nonsense - i'm going to bed

[Aloysius]

that's just cuz 'once saved always saved' is nonsense ^_^ :P

[Circle_Master]

it's because I said " I will stand by the statement that if they fall away (from salvation) - they never knew Christ." and then you say "but they did know Christ!". You already know my response to that - and you know my reasoning to it. That is just stubbornness in your side and not attempting to figure out what I'm saying. Meditate on what I wrote - cya later

[Aloysius]

it's because I said " I will stand by the statement that if they fall away (from salvation) - they never knew Christ." and then you say "but they did know Christ!".  You already know my response to that - and you know my reasoning to it.  That is just stubbornness in your side and not attempting to figure out what I'm saying.  Meditate on what I wrote - cya later

no, i actually said "but they thought they knew Christ"

i'm just tryin to show that just as they thought they knew Christ, so too do you think you know Christ.

i am actually seeing what you're saying, i'm just arguing that your thing still proclaims the truth that ppl with assurance of their salvation could end up in hell.

:rolling: i try not to be stubborn. :ph34r: but i just can't accept your statements as being logical.

Pax Christi et Good Night, don't let the bed-demons bite :lol:

[cmotherofpirl]

This is what I am hearing from you:

People can accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior, and are assured of heaven.

If it becomes obvious that after being "saved" they are living the life of terrible sin, you assume that the "saving" didn't really happen for various reasons, and because of depravity, unlerss they get saved and it sticks , they are going to hell.

But as long as they go along without committing serious sin, their salvation is assured.

Is this what you are saying?

[Circle_Master]

except that salvation is always secured for one in Christ. From God's perspective it is a simple thing. One is saved - end of story. From man's perspective we see people doing this, or that, or whatever. It is our sin nature which causes us to fall so often.

[cmotherofpirl]

except that salvation is always secured for one in Christ. From God's perspective it is a simple thing. One is saved - end of story. From man's perspective we see people doing this, or that, or whatever. It is our sin nature which causes us to fall so often.

So you agree with what I am saying Yes or no?

[Circle_Master]

all of it? no. I believe in eternal security

[Aloysius]

From God's perspective it is a simple thing. One is saved - end of story. From man's perspective we see people doing this, or that, or whatever. It is our sin nature which causes us to fall so often.

agreed with us too. from God's perspective, the elect are saved. God exists outside of time and is omniscient.

but the reprobate may think they are assured salvation and completely believe in Christ, (or maybe they just think they believe in Christ and after they stop everyone realizes they really didn't b4), but may be eventually damned by their own choice against God.

but from man's perspective we work out our salvation in fear and trembling, assured when we are REDEEMED but unassured of our eventual eternal salvation, for we are not omiscient nor do we exist outside of time like God.

[Circle_Master]

agreed with us to. from God's perspective, the elect are saved. God exists outside of time and is omniscient.

but from man's perspective we work out our salvation in fear and trembling, assured when we are REDEEMED but unassured of our eventual eternal salvation, for we are not omiscient nor do we exist outside of time like God.

now THAT is an arminian line! It's about time someone said it! Of course you may not even realize that and my hope is shattered.

[Aloysius]

:mellow: i don't know what an arminian line is.

is my edited version still arminian?

also, remember how i define redeemed (it's so confusing how everyone defines their terms different on this subject)

for me redeemed is saved from mortal sin and from all past sin, but we still must atone for sins we commit after being redeemed.

[Circle_Master]

yes it is. if you want to continue believing what you do, I would suggest you do some research in arminianism so you have some good arguments and things.

[cmotherofpirl]

all of it? no. I believe in eternal security

So which exact words are wrong?

[Aloysius]

okay, i'm not committing to such a belief, it just seems to be what makes sense, and definitely doesn't impose upon the view that you can loose your salvation. elect is a term only for God to truly use in my book, cuz we ourselves can't be assured of anyone being elect. the elect are just the ones who eventually make it, God knows who they are because of His omniscience. but people may still come to know Christ and have true faith in Him, but reject Him through Mortal sin. it doesn't mean they never truly knew Him, just that they were not a member of the elect. we're startin to find some common ground, which is good (Fellow Catholics, reprimand me if i'm walkin myself into somesort of unCatholic trap )

and check, i keep forgettin to put stuff in, i edited my last post to remind you of how i use the term "Redeemed" lest you have been confused as to my position due to me using words differently than some ppl use them. <haha i got skared when you started to agree with me >