Of Free Will

[Aloysius]

i understand that quote really doesn't prove anything, and in fact doesn't intend to talk about the Eucharist. in fact, i shouldn't have cited it. i just like it. srry.

anyway, your logic doesn't make sense. you have assurance of salvation, yet you don't have the assurance that anyone else who thinks they are assured salvation is truly assured salvation. if there are other people who think that they are assured salvation through their faith in Christ, but later on in life fall slave to sin, you claim they were never assured salvation. then isn't it likely that you, too, now think you are assured salvation through your faith in Christ, might really not be assured salvation which would only be shown through the future when you fall slave to sin? and if that's the case, you really aren't assured salvation after all.

as for God holding on to us, refute me with the Bible if you can, but i'm pretty sure God supports any free will decision on our part. God supported Pharoah's decision to be obstinate(sp?), and therefore God made Pharoah obstinate. God will allow us to leave if we truly don't want to be with Him.

[Circle_Master]

#1 -- I bet you're taking what Augustine says out of context. That's what non-Catholics always do when they try and use the Church Fathers against Catholics.

I'm not. I just scanned several reviews of Augustines doctrine to check up again and from from pro-calvin side and from anti-calvin side they both agree it is present.

#2 -- But as for those who get "saved" who later turn out to be unsaved, didn't they know too they were saved?  No doubt they were personally convinced they were saved, but according to you they were mistaken.  See the problem?  If they couldn't really be sure they were saved, then how can you be so sure that you are?  If they could be mistaken, why can't you be?

Why are you caught up on this? Let me explain how it is. There are many who believe they are saved - they go through the motions and they may actually believe they have faith in God. When the going gets tough however, they fall away because they had faith in something which was not God. For me? I have been a Christian for many years now. I have seen God work in my life and it is an undeniable fact for me that He works in my life and that He exists. As our faith grows - so does our assurance of salvation. As long as our faith is in the correct thing. Is it possible that I have deluded myself to such a point that I really am not saved? I suppose. Would I bet my life against that? I would. I have full 100% confidence in my salvation.

I hope that helps a little. There is no '7 step program' to figure out if someone is saved. And frankly, there is no reason to try to figure that out. We are called to disciple one another - as iron sharpens iron. We are called to edify each other. Not figure out if we are saved or not and then respond accordingly.

[Circle_Master]

as for God holding on to us, refute me with the Bible if you can, but i'm pretty sure God supports any free will decision on our part. God supported Pharoah's decision to be obstinate(sp?), and therefore God made Pharoah obstinate. God will allow us to leave if we truly don't want to be with Him.

apology accepted about the verse

Your first paragraph hopefully I answered in my previous post. If it doesn't I will try again.

This paragraph -

Romans 8:21 - If God be for us who can be against us? (answer - no one)

Romans 8:34 - Who is the one who condemns? Christ is He who died, yes rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who intercedes for us.

Romans 8:35 - Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? (answer - no one)

Romans 8:38-39 - Nothing in the world or out of the world can separate us from the love of Christ

John 10:28 - no one will snatch them out of My hand

John 10:29 - My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

John 6:38-40 promises that Christ will raise him (the believer) up on the last day.

1 Peter 1:3-9 "protected by the power of God"

I chose some which deal most directly with God's grip on us, and His security. If you want verses in general I could add a bunch more.

[Dave]

I'm not. I just scanned several reviews of Augustines doctrine to check up again and from from pro-calvin side and from anti-calvin side they both agree it is present.

Why are you caught up on this? Let me explain how it is. There are many who believe they are saved - they go through the motions and they may actually believe they have faith in God. When the going gets tough however, they fall away because they had faith in something which was not God. For me? I have been a Christian for many years now. I have seen God work in my life and it is an undeniable fact for me that He works in my life and that He exists. As our faith grows - so does our assurance of salvation. As long as our faith is in the correct thing. Is it possible that I have deluded myself to such a point that I really am not saved? I suppose. Would I bet my life against that? I would. I have full 100% confidence in my salvation.

I hope that helps a little. There is no '7 step program' to figure out if someone is saved. And frankly, there is no reason to try to figure that out. We are called to disciple one another - as iron sharpens iron. We are called to edify each other. Not figure out if we are saved or not and then respond accordingly.

#1 -- Were the anti-Calvin articles Catholic sources or non-Catholic sources?

#2 -- Well, if you're saved now, how do you know there won't come a point where that will cease to be the case?

[Aloysius]

okay, so really your have assurance in your salvation, but not really because it is POSSIBLE that you will eventually fall.

so you're life is the same as ours, except you hide the fact that you could fall again sometime.

from personal experience, there are people who have been great Christians through their whole life, made it through spiritually dry times strong in their faith with great faith and love of Jesus Christ that could get them through the roughest water. yet they eventually give their consent to mortally sin, and it kills their spirit. and their addiction to that sin leads them further and further away from God. and even if GOd beckons them back, he doesn't force them back. even the greatest Christians have the possibility of falling into mortal sin and going to hell.

so, both of us recognize that in the name of Christ we are saved from our former sinfullness and from original sin (through baptism, dying with the Lord and rising with the Lord) and that at sometime in the future it is possible for us to fall. but your just more arogantly optomistic about it.

[Circle_Master]

#1 -- Were the anti-Calvin articles Catholic sources or non-Catholic sources?

#2 -- Well, if you're saved now, how do you know there won't come a point where that will cease to be the case?

1 - does it matter? the anti-calvin site was attempting to discredit him so it would seem stupid to believe in eternal security that Augustine taught. I didn't find any Catholic sources off hand - most of my links and references are to Christian research pages, not Catholic ones.

2 - If you mean besides eternal security - I already issued that in the paragraph. If you are talking about eternal security (aka perseverence of the saints or 'once saved always saved') then I suggest you read through the thread on Eternal Security starting at around page 4.

[Aloysius]

no one will snatch me from the Lord's hand= True

no one will tempt me away leading me to willfully leave the Lord= False

i am supported by Scripture and tradition. :cool:

[Circle_Master]

okay, so really your have assurance in your salvation, but not really because it is POSSIBLE that you will eventually fall.

so you're life is the same as ours, except you hide the fact that you could fall again sometime.

I am saved. I can not fall from salvation. This is based on the biblical doctrine of eternal security. I mentioned in the last post I could be so incredibly deluded that I may not be saved - however I would bet my life on it that I am not.

from personal experience, there are people who have been great Christians through their whole life, made it through spiritually dry times strong in their faith with great faith and love of Jesus Christ that could get them through the roughest water.  yet they eventually give their consent to mortally sin, and it kills their spirit.  and their addiction to that sin leads them further and further away from God.  and even if GOd beckons them back, he doesn't force them back.  even the greatest Christians have the possibility of falling into mortal sin and going to hell.

Yes there are great Christians who fall, and keep falling further and further. There was one hymn writer (I forget the name - I was doing a study on the authors of them) and he heard a hymn he wrote 30 years earlier and wept, wishing he could have the joy he had then. The falling cannot separate them from salvation however because it is promised.

so, both of us recognize that in the name of Christ we are saved from our former sinfullness and from original sin (through baptism, dying with the Lord and rising with the Lord) and that at sometime in the future it is possible for us to fall.  but your just more arogantly optomistic about it.

Either you aren't listening, or you are purposely twisting my words here. I am not arrogantly optimistic about anything. I study the bible to attempt to see what it teaches. I see it extremely clear that as a saved Christian, the Christian will continue through his faith until the day of redemption (i.e. when the Lord returns) and he will enter heaven.

[Dave]

1 - does it matter? the anti-calvin site was attempting to discredit him so it would seem stupid to believe in eternal security that Augustine taught. I didn't find any Catholic sources off hand - most of my links and references are to Christian research pages, not Catholic ones.

2 - If you mean besides eternal security - I already issued that in the paragraph. If you are talking about eternal security (aka perseverence of the saints or 'once saved always saved') then I suggest you read through the thread on Eternal Security starting at around page 4.

1 - Yes, it sure does. Non-Catholic sources are often biased against Catholicism's teachings in that, when it comes to the Fathers, they read non-Catholic interpretations into things.

2 - I've read that thread, and you have yet to give an argument to support the idea that there's such a thing as eternal security.

[Circle_Master]

1 - Yes, it sure does. Non-Catholic sources are often biased against Catholicism's teachings in that, when it comes to the Fathers, they read non-Catholic interpretations into things.

What the heck are you talking about. This has nothing to do with Catholicism. I'm sorry to burst your bubble but most webpages I go to and get information from don't care diddily squat about Catholicism. They study Augustine and his works merely to understand what the Church Fathers taught. Catholicism is not an issue.

2 - I've read that thread, and you have yet to give an argument to support the idea that there's such a thing as eternal security.

wow. i doubt you have read it then. you could start at page 1. or you could go to page 3 or 4 where i posted about 60 verses referring to what Christ and the Holy Spirit did in salvation personally.

[Aloysius]

i didn't mean to twist your words. okay, so you're saying it's possible that you're really not saved because plenty of ppl are really not saved when they have complete assurance that they are. so it's possible that you were never saved, you just don't think so. okay, so you don't actually think you could fall from salvation, you just think that theres a slight possibility but in your own mind, just like in anyone elses mind who thought they were saved but werent, you'd bet your life against it. so we both see the slight possibility of either of us ending up in hell.

your doctrine concerning this therefore, would be the following:

there are certain people who honestly think they are saved, honestly think they have faith and grace and are assured of their salvation, but are really just delluded. that is why certain people who believe they are saved by Christ may end up in the future to have never been saved

while my doctrine concerning this would be the following:

people who are converted to CHrist may of their own free will leave at any time, if they are tempted to mortally sin and give full consent of their will to the sin may become slaves to the former sin of which they were redeemed, they must then be redeemed again by being forgiven. they are only saved when they persevere to the end by being completely redeemed at the hour of death and living their faith through their works.

err... somethin like that. w/e.

[Circle_Master]

I would add that those fitting under my ... group.. are not typical either. You see it mostly with people who take comfort in religion - but never actually believe. You also see it mostly with people who grew up with it and never accepted it as your own. Personally I know a lot of people, and I know 0 who believed they were saved for a long time and then fell away and don't believe in God anymore.

[Aloysius]

but there are ppl of your kind who do that. people who actually take the faith as their own, truly believe, but through the years it degrades. one mortal sin, a sin of something gravely important, where they know how wrong it is, and give their full consent of the will to it can drop their soul away from the presence of God. it's happened before, to Catholics and Protestants.

[Circle_Master]

but there are ppl of your kind who do that. people who actually take the faith as their own, truly believe, but through the years it degrades. one mortal sin, a sin of something gravely important, where they know how wrong it is, and give their full consent of the will to it can drop their soul away from the presence of God. it's happened before, to Catholics and Protestants.

I will stand by the statement that if they fall away (from salvation) - they never knew Christ.

Hebrews 3:12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.

Jude 24 Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy

I had a better verse I knew but I'm having problems remembering it at the moment.

[Aloysius]

Hebrews 3:12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.

to fall away from the living God, you must at one time be WITH the living God...

and of course the cause of such falling is an evil unbelieving heart within you. but that passage does not deny that you can have a clean heart within you but through willfull disobedience stain that clean heart. in fact, if that could not happen, that scripture could not be applied to any TRUE Christian, as they would not have an evil, unbelieving heart. By being redeemed your heart is completely cleaned, but that doesn't take away your ability to stain it again.