Of Free Will

[freegrace]

what if they claim to be saved, exhibit all sorts of good works and prayers.. and then fall into sin again? that happens you know. what about them? are they saved because of the faith in Christ's mercy showing through in works for that time in their life. there could've been years of that faith showing through works, and all of the sudden they turn their back on God, what then?

Well first of all I then apply the 1 john principle "Those who went out from us were never of us." Also that why james writes in james 2 "they are justified by their works" we confirm if someone is regenrated through their works.

How much bad is too bad and how much good is too good? Well God demands perfection, who do you know is perfect and without sin? No one? Well then all go to hell based on their works. Lets stay on free will. Did the isrealites before they were brought out of slavery through moses, ever serve another master? Or was the only master they served pharoh? They had no choice they only served one master. And as john says who ever commits a sin is a slave to sin. Obviously talking about the unregenerate.

Also the what if game is not God's plan but you opposing the word of God.

[Circle_Master]

They are trying to find "proof" for a doctrine that did not exist until the 16th century in a collection of first-century writings which do not address that concept at all.

I would beg to differ. Have you ever heard of Augustine of Hippo? He was one of your Church Fathers I believe - He taught eternal security.

[cmotherofpirl]

These actions are permanent in a believer, and "He who began a good work will complete it at the day of redemption." Just like you believe sanctification to always be part of one's life after infant baptism/initial conversion (sorry if I messed that up), so thus the Holy Spirit will always be part of someones life.

Actually sanctification does not have to happen after baptism. Its is never a guarentee. Your soul is permanently justified by Baptism, but sanctification and salvation are always a choice.

We always have the free will to accept or reject God.

[cmotherofpirl]

I would beg to differ. Have you ever heard of Augustine of Hippo? He was one of your Church Fathers I believe - He taught eternal security.

But he is not infallible.

[Circle_Master]

But he is not infallible.

I never said he was. I was showing Likos he was wrong.

[freegrace]

Supporters of OSAS believe everything concerning God's revelation and our salvation is explained in the Bible -- as they personally interpret it.

Wrong on both counts.

They are trying to find "proof" for a doctrine that did not exist until the 16th century in a collection of first-century writings which do not address that concept at all.

Quoting the New Testament to prove a doctrine that was invented in the 16th century is like quoting Shakespeare to prove the Theory of Relativity. Shakespeare doesn't deal with Relativity, and the NT doesn't deal with OSAS.

JMJ Likos

No offense and in all humility, thats a cop-out and bad logic. First of all (since we're pulling out cliches now) have you heard of augustine? Thomas Aquinas? The greek orthodox church for a considerable time held these things also. What we are trying to prove by using scripture is that those who wrote what is considered "breathed by God" believed the same thing we do, and from my understanding the reformers have done just that.

Also you just insulted the very word of God need i quote again

2 Tim. 3:16-17

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righ teousness, [17] that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

Have you ever read psalm 119?

2 Peter 1:16-21

For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. [17] For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased," [18] we ourselves heard this very voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain. [19] And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, [20] knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. [21] For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

So you would rather let man decide your theology than God. It is impossible to discuss with subjective theology. Im sorry.

As Jesus would say to the pharisees...

Matthew 22:31

"But Jesus answered them, "You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God."

I hope you can see where we are coming from. I do not seek long ended debate I was hoping that by appealing to you some of you may respond to the gospel of grace.

[Circle_Master]

Actually sanctification does not have to happen after baptism. Its is never a guarentee. Your soul is permanently justified by Baptism, but sanctification and salvation are always a choice.

justification and righteousness are the same word in hebrew and greek - merely different tenses.

justification is the act of declaring righteous. if we are permanently justified - then we are permanently righteous. and if that is so then all those baptized are entering heaven.

perhaps you mean another word by justification?

[cmotherofpirl]

So you would rather let man decide your theology than God. It is impossible to discuss with subjective theology. Im sorry.

Protestants let man decide their theology when Martin Luther deformed the Bible by taking out the books he didn't like.

[freegrace]

Protestants let man decide their theology when Martin Luther deformed the Bible by taking out the books he didn't like.

I think he was working more off of the athanasian creed, jerome, augustine and iraneus who knew the disciple John. I may be wrong but thats my understanding of church history.

[Dave]

I would beg to differ. Have you ever heard of Augustine of Hippo? He was one of your Church Fathers I believe - He taught eternal security.

Prove it.

[Dave]

I would question if they were ever regenerated and truly ever were saved. We see that works will result from a regenerate heart.

If a person got "saved" and later, I mean MUCH later on, started sinning seriously left and right, and you say that it's likely such a person wasn't really saved in the first place, then how can you tell that ANYBODY is truly saved, even you? I mean, who's to say you couldn't cease to live uprightly and start living a sinful life?

[Circle_Master]

Prove it.

I suggest you read Augustine's "On the Gift of Perseverance" first

If a person got "saved" and later, I mean MUCH later on, started sinning seriously left and right, and you say that it's likely such a person wasn't really saved in the first place, then how can you tell that ANYBODY is truly saved, even you? I mean, who's to say you couldn't cease to live uprightly and start living a sinful life?

Who can really tell if anyone is saved? Only God knows, and possibly the individual in his heart. Can you measure faith? Can you pour one's heart into a bowl and measure it for the presence of God? These are things God see's, not us. I know however what I believe, and I know the faith I have in Christ. I know personally I am going to heaven. That is why some of the NT was actually written. Consider Johns words in 1 John 5 "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life."

[Aloysius]

Who can really tell if anyone is saved? Only God knows, and possibly the individual in his heart. Can you measure faith? Can you pour one's heart into a bowl and measure it for the presence of God? These are things God see's, not us. I know however what I believe, and I know the faith I have in Christ. I know personally I am going to heaven. That is why some of the NT was actually written. Consider Johns words in 1 John 5 "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life."

wait a second, you just said that only God can tell who is saved. then you said you can tell that you yourself are saved?

umm.......... so ppl can personally tell whehter or not they're saved, except there's some people who can seemingly tell that they're saved but end up not being saved, but you personally are assured of your salvation.

here's the thing. YOU ARE REDEEMED. you work out your SALVATION, however, in fear and trembling.

He writes that they know that through the Son of God people have Eternal LIfe, by eating His Flesh and drinking His Blood, you have eternal life. a don't tell me there's no such thing as Jesus Christ now coming in the flesh for 2John7: Many decievers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, such is the deceitful one and the ANTICHRIST.

anyway, you have eternal life, meaning you are redeemed. you are saved from your past sinfullness, no longer a slave to sin. but you can fall again. you can sell yourself back into slavery. that's the only way the Bible makes sense. the terms used are quite confusing though. w/e.

on the augustine thing, dig through the debate table, look for a thread on Augustine "The Doctor of Grace"

so much stuff can be misunderstood... to claim we don't need a Church is to claim Christ left us orphans.

Pax Christi

[Circle_Master]

here's the thing. YOU ARE REDEEMED. you work out your SALVATION, however, in fear and trembling.

yes, because our salvation is a gift from God. work it out - figure it out- grow in faith.

He writes that they know that through the Son of God people have Eternal LIfe, by eating His Flesh and drinking His Blood, you have eternal life.  a don't tell me there's no such thing as Jesus Christ now coming in the flesh for 2John7: Many decievers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, such is the deceitful one and the ANTICHRIST.

2 John 7 was written against heresies which taught Jesus was completely Spirit and not human. It was issuing things such as 'juadastic gnosticism' from the time period. It is written "those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh". I would never deny Jesus came in the flesh, nor would I deny that He will come again in the flesh. If you are saying this makes me an antiChrist because I don't believe in the eucharist - I suggest you read the passage again.

anyway, you have eternal life, meaning you are redeemed.  you are saved from your past sinfullness, no longer a slave to sin.  but you can fall again.  you can sell yourself back into slavery.  that's the only way the Bible makes sense.  the terms used are quite confusing though.  w/e.

We can't sell ourselves back into sin however. It is a work of God that freed us. If it took God to regenerate our hearts, it will take Him to release us so we may enslave ourselves again to sin. Fortunately God promises never to let us go. The Bible makes perfect sense this way.

on the augustine thing, dig through the debate table, look for a thread on Augustine "The Doctor of Grace"

so much stuff can be misunderstood... to claim we don't need a Church is to claim Christ left us orphans. 

I understand much can be represented. I am fully aware that Augustine didn't believe all Christians had the gift of perseverance of the saints. But he did teach it and he did believe it to be real thus showing it was in existance at least by 425 A.D.

[Dave]

I suggest you read Augustine's "On the Gift of Perseverance" first

Who can really tell if anyone is saved? Only God knows, and possibly the individual in his heart. Can you measure faith? Can you pour one's heart into a bowl and measure it for the presence of God? These are things God see's, not us. I know however what I believe, and I know the faith I have in Christ. I know personally I am going to heaven. That is why some of the NT was actually written. Consider Johns words in 1 John 5 "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life."

#1 -- I bet you're taking what Augustine says out of context. That's what non-Catholics always do when they try and use the Church Fathers against Catholics.

#2 -- But as for those who get "saved" who later turn out to be unsaved, didn't they know too they were saved? No doubt they were personally convinced they were saved, but according to you they were mistaken. See the problem? If they couldn't really be sure they were saved, then how can you be so sure that you are? If they could be mistaken, why can't you be?