Of Free Will

[freegrace]

Apparently I had put this on the wrong discussion board...

Footnotes with proofs are below the discourse.

I. God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined good, or evil.[1]

II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God;[2] but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it.[3]

III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation:[4] so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good,[5] and dead in sin,[6] is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.[7]

IV. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage under sin;[8] and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good;[9] yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he does not perfectly, or only, will that which is good, but does also will that which is evil.[10]

V. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to do good alone in the state of glory only.[11]

FOOTNOTES

[1] MAT 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. JAM 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. DEU 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.

[2] ECC 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

[3] GEN 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

[4] ROM 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. JOH 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

[5] ROM 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

[6] EPH 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins. 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved). COL 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses.

[7] JOH 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. EPH 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;). 1CO 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. TIT 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.

[8] COL 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son. JOH 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

[9] PHI 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. ROM 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

[10] GAL 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. ROM 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 18 For I know that in me(that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

[11] EPH 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. HEB 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect. 1JO 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. JUD 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy.

What is the catholic response to this. Please respond with more than a statement, I would like logical proof and biblical proof. (by the way i did not put this together but I found it to be sound a bullet proof).

In summation how can man "accept christ" to receive salvation if he can will no good?

[cmotherofpirl]

I got lost a bit with the English.

III translates into because we are sinners, we can't ask for God into our lives?

VIGods grace at justification enables us to strive for good, but still do evil?

VWE can only want teh total good when we get to heaven?

and your question is how can we accept "salvation" if we are not capable of wanting the good?

Is this close to what you are saying?

If this is what you are stating then here is my quick response tonight, and others will answer as well (I have to be up in 5 hours)

God is always seeking us and calling our name. His grace enables us to hear Him, and respond to Him. God's grace is an invitation that we can accept, reject, or accept and later reject. WE only have to respond in the slightest for God to start working in us" work out your salvation in fear and trembling"

Sorry for the short response.

Welcome to phatmass, and goodnight :)

[foundsheep]

Somone should make it against the law to mix versus to say what you want.

8] COL 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son. JOH 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

to add to this since its cutoff nice and neat, is you cannot serve two masters, and in this case youve shown we do have a choice, sin or Jesus.

[foundsheep]

4] ROM 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. JOH 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Lets finish the verse in bold:

5

I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing.

6

4 Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned.

7

If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you.

8

By this is my Father glorified, that you bear much fruit and become my disciples.

9

As the Father loves me, so I also love you. Remain in my love.

10

If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and remain in his love

I wonder if I break his commandments, does this still apply?

[freegrace]

Im sorry but I don't believe ive seen any interpretation on the verses I offered that you are a "slave to sin" and that "no one does good." If this is true it requires God to will in you good. Much like the post I put in the question and answer.

Ephes. 2:10

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Ezekiel 36:27

And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

I agree that Christians do good works, but obviously its God in us. It has to be, if you are a slave to sin you can not do righteousness. If you are dead to sin you can not make yourself alive.

once again free will is a myth, we have a will but as an unbeliever we can only will evil until God takes our will and binds it to his can we do good. Please adress the issue at hand with proofs.

[ICTHUS]

Free will is not a myth, however, it operates under the Sovereignty of God. You sound like a hyper-calvinist. Man does something because God has predestined it. Mans free will operates within the Sovereignty of God.

[freegrace]

Free will is not a myth, however, it operates under the Sovereignty of God. You sound like a hyper-calvinist. Man does something because God has predestined it. Mans free will operates within the Sovereignty of God.

Mans will is subject to God's will? Is that what you are saying? Kinda like Romans 9:13-18

As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

[14] What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! [15] For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." [16] So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. [17] For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." [18] So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

Free will believes that we in our own ability choose God and do good on our own ability. Where as scripture teaches that apart from God's grace we are dead in our sin and will only evil.

If our will is completely free that means God's is not. And when does free will end? Does it end at death? how? So do we stand before God and get condemned to hell (or purgatory... thats another issue) do we say "no you can't violate my free will, I choose heaven" is that when free will ends? What does scripture teach on this issue?

an unbeliever can only will sin, when God regenerates his heart or he is born again, only then can he choose good.

[Aloysius]

Free will is  not a myth, however, it operates under the Sovereignty of God. You sound like a hyper-calvinist. Man does something because God has predestined it. Mans free will operates within the Sovereignty of God.

i contend that the sovereignty of God backs up man's free will, whatever it is. whatever man chooses, God allows, unless it's a Pope and/or a bunch of bishops trying to choose to teach the Church error, cuz that's the only time God will intervene.

anyway, because God gave man free will, and God wants man to have free will, God chooses to allow man's free will, thus it is GOD doing the choosing, but God is doing the Choosing before and because man does the choosing. chicken and the egg and all that.

however, our choice isn't of our own ability, but of God's ability. because our free will is what God gave us the free will is God's ability. God's actions correspond to how we use the free will He gave us. He, of course, could revoke that at any time and contradict our free will, but as far as we know, He only does that to preserve infallibility.

[cmotherofpirl]

an unbeliever can only will sin, when God regenerates his heart or he is born again, only then can he choose good.

So how do you account for those people who claim to be saved, then go out a committ a great sin? Were they delusional or lying when they claimed to be"saved".

[Circle_Master]

So how do you account for those people who claim to be saved, then go out a committ a great sin? Were they delusional or lying when they claimed to be"saved".

of course not. because one is regenerated does not mean he is perfect. it means he is now not enslaved to sin - and he must continue in his life in sanctification until he is glorified with Christ.

[cmotherofpirl]

but what about the people who never turn back to God? Who persist in their sin until death?

You really don't think they go to heaven do you?

[Circle_Master]

but what about the people who never turn back to God? Who persist in their sin until death?

You really don't think they go to heaven do you?

I would question if they were ever regenerated and truly ever were saved. We see that works will result from a regenerate heart.

One could theoretically resist for a long time - however you see results such as death happen to them (1 Cor 5, end of 1 Tim 1)

[Aloysius]

what if they claim to be saved, exhibit all sorts of good works and prayers.. and then fall into sin again? that happens you know. what about them? are they saved because of the faith in Christ's mercy showing through in works for that time in their life. there could've been years of that faith showing through works, and all of the sudden they turn their back on God, what then?

[Circle_Master]

what if they claim to be saved, exhibit all sorts of good works and prayers.. and then fall into sin again? that happens you know. what about them? are they saved because of the faith in Christ's mercy showing through in works for that time in their life. there could've been years of that faith showing through works, and all of the sudden they turn their back on God, what then?

I can't speak for if they are saved or not. All I can say is that when one first accepts Jesus as their Lord and Savior they are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, regenerated by Him, sanctified by Him (positionally), baptized into the body of Christ, and several other things. For a more complete list go to

http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...opic=5503&st=45

it's most of the way towards the bottom and also has many verses included to see where I get each concept from.

These actions are permanent in a believer, and "He who began a good work will complete it at the day of redemption." Just like you believe sanctification to always be part of one's life after infant baptism/initial conversion (sorry if I messed that up), so thus the Holy Spirit will always be part of someones life.

[Katholikos]

Supporters of OSAS believe everything concerning God's revelation and our salvation is explained in the Bible -- as they personally interpret it.

Wrong on both counts.

They are trying to find "proof" for a doctrine that did not exist until the 16th century in a collection of first-century writings which do not address that concept at all.

Quoting the New Testament to prove a doctrine that was invented in the 16th century is like quoting Shakespeare to prove the Theory of Relativity. Shakespeare doesn't deal with Relativity, and the NT doesn't deal with OSAS.

JMJ Likos