Intelligent Life

[Jeff]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1041627' date='Aug 11 2006, 03:46 PM']
I think it's heresy to believe in intelligent non-pure spirit/subtle matter life that does not live on Earth.
[/quote]

It's not heresy, and I doubt you can find a quote from a pre-vaticanII Pope to support that contention.

That quote about burning bibles by Pius X has to be one of the stupidist things a pope has ever said.

[Resurrexi]

Well, it's a mortal sin to disrespect the Holy Roman Pontiff or to call the contents of their catechisms stupid. How would you like it if I said that everything in the Catechism of the Catholic Church were stupid (which, by the way, I do not think. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, in its original Latin is a very good and orthodox catechism)

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='zwergel88' post='1041587' date='Aug 11 2006, 02:39 PM']
I tend to think that, yes, there is intelligent life out there and that they have in fact visited us...
[/quote]

Zwergel... I can honestly say that this is probably the only thing that I actually agree with you on
hehe
It's at the very least an interesting this to look at what happened that day in Roswell

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]I think it's heresy to believe in intelligent non-pure spirit/subtle matter life that does not live on Earth.[/quote]

I do wonder what you base that on. As challenged above, I doubt ou could find an official Church document saying what you said. If anything, the documents would say, if there is life, it is part of God's creation.

Biblically, you have found nothing but appear to be grasphing at straws with that Genesis citation. It simply says that man is greatest on the earth and shall subdue it, that's it. There could eb life out there not on earth. There could be life that comes later to this earth, though I could even grant that this can't happen for the sake of argument as it has not happened at least yet. You seem like some of those crazy protestants who make outlandish claims then find a sliver of something that might mean what you hope it does.

Though I am confused with what you're saying with "non-pure" spirit etc. I assume you think if there's anything other than us, it would have to be non-pure, because of what you think the bible says. but hten if it's nonpure then it doesn't contradict the bible. so really i have no idea what you're basing it on. I don't know why you think it can't be "pure" if it existed. and i dont know why it can't exist to begin with according to CC teaching.

Edited August 12, 2006 by dairygirl4u2c

[Resurrexi]

A pure spirit is a spirit that is purely spirit. God is a pure spirit. Some claim that angels are also purely spirit. Prior to St. Aquinas, I think, it was thought that angels were made of "subtle matter", and that only the substance of God was pure spirit. Basically, what I'm saying, is that I do not belive that there are any other creatures in the universe that are non-Angelic (i.e. creatures made of either pure spirit or subtle matter)

[Socrates]

If extraterrestrial life is visiting us, if we are to believe the reports of the UFO crowd, it couldn't really be described as "intelligent." I mean, why would these supposedly hugely advanced beings, who have mastered the art of interstellar travel (believed by most reputable scientists to be impossible), once they have traversed the unthinkable billions of miles across the galaxy to reach Earth, have nothing better to do when they get here than sneak around buggering people and mutilating cattle genitalia?

I tend to agree with "StThomasMore' on this issue.

Edited August 13, 2006 by Socrates

[Jeff]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1036783' date='Aug 3 2006, 08:03 AM']

The big question I have is this: assuming every ufo is simply a government “black project” [u]…why-the-heck would the government fly a top-secret project over a major city during the evening and scare the carp out the citizen population?[/u]

[/quote]

Indeed. That's one of three possibilities I can imagine-

1.It's a hoax engineered by the government
2.It's angelic and/or demonic in origin
3.It's actually extraterrestrial contact

Something is definitely happening. All three possibilities leave one wondering "why?"
[img]http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/imgs/uk02dl/aerial1.jpg[/img]

The enigmatic messege found encoded on the disk was, "Beware the bearers of FALSE gifts & their BROKEN PROMISES. Much PAIN but still time. EELRIJUE. There is GOOD out there. We OPpose DECEPTION. Conduit CLOSING (BELL SOUND)"

Edited August 13, 2006 by Jeff

[Laudate_Dominum]

crop circles are amusing. check it out, this one proves the existence of aliens and bigfoot at the same time:

[img]http://www.circlemakers.org/Img/nike_milan_1.jpg[/img]

And it looks like the aliens might be expanding beyond crops by making facinating formations on beaches. I guess maybe british television signals can be picked up by their UFO's:

[img]http://www.circlemakers.org/Img/uktv_aerial_04.jpg[/img]

maybe that one was just a little token of appreciation? hehe j/k


but seriously, I don't accept any of those three theories Jeff. I don't see a need to posit government conspiracies or extra terrestrials. What makes the most sense to me is just the idea of various rag tag groups of people with different degrees of sophistication who go around making crop circles for fun and who strive to create more and more complex and impressive formations. Enough of these groups have gone public over the years to satisfy me anyway.


This one is phat:

[img]http://www.circlemakers.org/Img/kitty_aerial.jpg[/img]

So who makes crop circles in my opinion? Here are some of the artists:

[img]http://www.circlemakers.org/Img/bbcdrama_crew.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.circlemakers.org/Img/nat_geo_harvest.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.circlemakers.org/Img/train_to_france_05.jpg[/img]

This crew is for hire and can make you a pretty stunning crop circle in a few hours:

[img]http://www.circlemakers.org/Img/sun_france_3.jpg[/img]

Some of the leaders in the field who have gone public are men such as John Lundberg, Wil Russell and Rob Irving. Then there is the famous duo who went public in the early 90's, Doug Bower and Dave Chorley. Considering the beauty and complexity of many of the crop formations that are known to be entirely man-made, I see no reason to posit extraordinary forces at work in any of the crop formations. Call me a cynic, but I'd call it common sense. Human beings are very resourceful and creative beings, we are capable of building and creating impressive things. It seems like UFO's and all that have become the superstition of modern times. The ancient formations in the Andes, the Pyramids, the Sphinx, the Easter Island stuff, etc.. was all created by human beings. Why is it so unbelievable to think that human beings could create such things? We can make aircraft carriers, the sears tower, space shuttles, the great wall of China, etc.. Crop circles? Big deal.

[Laudate_Dominum]

This picture is from a gathering of professional crop circle artists:

[img]http://www.circlemakers.org/Img/doug_gathering3_02.jpg[/img]


And here are some pretty sophisticated formations that were made by human crews working at night:

[img]http://www.circlemakers.org/Img/silbury_hill_04.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.circlemakers.org/Img/westkennet_2_04.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.circlemakers.org/Img/milk_hill_04.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.circlemakers.org/Img/card_trick5_03.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.circlemakers.org/Img/corona_03.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.circlemakers.org/Img/chalk_bb_03.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.circlemakers.org/Img/windmillhill_02.jpg[/img]



[img]http://www.circlemakers.org/Img/big_rich_judy_02.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.circlemakers.org/Img/woman_in_landscape_02.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.circlemakers.org/Img/DailyMail.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.circlemakers.org/Img/nz4.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.circlemakers.org/Img/new_yell.jpg[/img]

here are some of the aliens:
[img]http://www.circlemakers.org/Img/dougandus.jpg[/img]

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Jeff' post='1038662' date='Aug 6 2006, 12:41 PM']
"What a waste of space."
-Jodi Foster, Contact
[/quote]
I've heard people say that sort of thing before as if it was somehow an argument of some kind.

It is the kind of sentiment that I've heard mostly from athiests or agnostics, but regardless of the persons belief in God it simply strikes me as an empty anthropopathism.
I'm not trying to be rude, but this statement seems to me to be little more than an emotional appeal where the force of persuasion rests upon the listeners predisposition toward assuming some sort of anthropopathic intention behind the cosmos.
This statement is therefore doubly absurd for the athiest.

Part of the irony is that this type of sentiment is often expressed by people who resent and attack the idea of an anthropocentric universe. The irony here is that their expressed attitude assumes that space which is not inhabited by creatures similar to us is simply wasted space. It is apparently the subjective appreciation of conscious minds like our own that bestows meaning and worth upon this otherwise 'wasted' space.

As a theist I hold that it is the simple fact that reality is the work of God, and in some way a self-expression of the Divine that it has any meaning or value. God may have created zillions of other universes, zillions of times more vast than our own, and these universes could be completely lacking in life or personal beings, and yet I see no basis for suggesting that these would constitute merely 'wasted space'. I'd hate to sound Hindu, but in a way I ultimately consider such things as space and time to be illusions anyway.

[Jeff]

I know that the vast majority of crop circles are hoaxes. But could something like the crop glyphs at Chilbolton been done by some kid's with planks? Yes, humans built Rome, but we didn't build it in one night.

Crop circles are only one piece of the puzzle. The animal mutilations are surgically precise. Often, most or all of the blood is removed. Yes, we have experts and machines that could do that. Yes, that sounds like cult activity. But why do it in some ranchers field?

There's been u.f.o. sightings since before the 'foo-fighters'. And abduction cases like the Billy Miers case defy explanation.

I 'see through a glass darkly' what you're saying about space and time being an illusion. But I can't imagine that, given infinite space and time, the Creator would create only earth.

I really don't have a dog in this hunt. I'd prefer a simple universe that I could understand. I don't enjoy being confounded.

Below are some quotes from a previous thread. Disagreeing with them does not constitute heresy nor a mortal sin.

Msgr. Corrado Balducci said that extraterrestrial encounters, "are not demonic, they are not due to psychological impairment, they are not a case of entity attachment, but these encounters deserve to be studied carefully."

“It is very well possible that other inhabited planets exist. We do not faind any direct reference to extraterrestrial life in the Bible, but it neither excludes their existence… The existence of other inhabited planets is highly probable…It is highly probable that… between us and the angels, another life form exists, namely beings which still have a physical body but one which is more perfect than ours…”.

When a little girl asked John Paul the Great if, "there are any aliens?", he responded, "Always remember: They are children of God as we are…” .

"The Lord certainly did not limit His glory to this small Earth. On other planets other beings exist who did not sin and fall as we did."
-Padre Pio

[Laudate_Dominum]

Jeff, I don't have a problem with the possibility that there could be other personal beings in the cosmos. We know by revelation that human beings are not the only personal beings whom God has created, who knows what God has actually created?
But the possibility of other beings that are unknown to us now is one thing, believing in the UFO cult phenomenon is another.

I realize that there are countless fascinating mysteries in the world, some of which have been attributed in some way to aliens, but from what I've seen to date the vast majority of this alien related theorizing is mere superstition. It is just a leap that I am not prepared to make. Not because I am horrified by the possibility of non-human beings from other planets, I think that would be pretty cool actually, but because I haven't seen anything to date which compels me to make such a leap of faith.
And I'm afraid I must take fantastic reports with a grain of salt, if I cannot examine the evidence first hand. There have been too many elaborate hoaxes in history, and there are slews of marvelous reports of all kinds.
Honestly, most of the UFO stuff I've seen on TV and on websites is just plain lame. I can understand why some people get wrapped up in it, but I've yet to experience such a temptation. The vast majority of UFO nonsense that I've seen strikes me as nothing more than bad propaganda. It is possible to create convincing stories and compound various 'testimonies' and strange occurrences in order to create the illusion that something absurd is not only plausible, but likely.

It wasn't that long ago that you could still find people in England who believed that the Irish have tails concealed under their clothes.
It wasn't that long ago when a scientific man in good standing could hold the view that the earth's crust is home to a race of little men, and there was a great deal of evidence which made the case for this silly fantasy. And there is evidence of a great civilization on Mars, the old canals that people used to believe in, or that dumb sphinx face thing on mars.. Just like the Pope is the anti-christ, Bush and Cheney were the masterminds of 9/11, the moon landing was done on a hollywood set, the Russians are responsible for everything that goes wrong in this country, the Jews were responsible for the suppression of the German people, Jesus and Mary Magdalene were married, the book of mormon was written on ancient gold tablets that are preserved in the Smithsonian, etc, etc..

I suspect that if one really scrutinized the evidence for UFO encounters they would find themselves clinging to an ever smaller thread of evidence. How many hoaxes and absurdities does it take before one begins to consider the possibility that this phenomenon is merely a popular superstition?

Maybe some day space ships will land and start hanging out with us. If that happens I'll have no problem admitting that I'm wrong. Actually that’d be pretty sweet, maybe they’d hook us up and we could go explore other planets and jazz, but at this point I feel that I would be making an inappropriate assent of faith in holding that the UFO phenomenon has any real credibility.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Jeff' post='1043049' date='Aug 13 2006, 08:36 PM']
I know that the vast majority of crop circles are hoaxes. But could something like the crop glyphs at Chilbolton been done by some kid's with planks? Yes, humans built Rome, but we didn't build it in one night.
[/quote]
I'm sure some crop circles are done by some kids with planks. There were a bunch of students from M.I.T. who on their first attempt made a pretty impressive crop circle, complete with much of the "unexplained" phenomenon that people often use to suggest that it must be aliens.
But that is still a misrepresentation of my view. I see evidence of a loose underground of at times quite sophisticated, you might say professional crop formation artists. And there are techniques that are used to make it possible to create the more elaborate formations in one night. One approach is to go out the night before and do your surveying and mark out the area in a way that is not immediately visible. That way on the night when the grass is flattened you have all your ducks in a row as it were.

But anyway, I doubt the Chilbolton formations were created by some kids with planks. I believe it was a group of more sophisticated professionals with a great deal of experience. I certainly hope that it wasn't aliens considering one of the formations which contains a representation of the DNA code includes some pretty glaring scientific errors. I would hope that a race of highly advanced aliens who have supposedly been studying humanity for a long time now would have the details of our genome pinned down.

I suppose you might think I'm being too cynical and skeptical or perhaps that I am just ignorant of the full array of evidence that you are presumably aware of. Perhaps if I looked into the evidence further I would start to come around.
In all actuality I would not deny such a claim, I have never devoted a great deal of time to studying these issues simply because the little bit of research I have done just reeked so strongly of B.S. that I couldn't keep myself interested. Call me a doubting Thomas, but I would have to see a ship of aliens descending on Steubenville before I would be able to give any kind of real assent to the UFO craze.

In my opinion the atheistic philosophies of modern times have left many people empty inside. Religious yearnings are a part of humanity and when you take God out of the picture it makes sense that in our context you would find a quasi-scientific religion of the paranormal. I consider crop circles and various other 'close encounters' to be little more than the mythology of this new superstitious, quasi-religious movement.

If I were to assume credibility in the fantastic claims of this new age cult I would have little basis for being skeptical of the many other supernatural and paranormal movements out there. There are at least as many people willing to testify for miracles worked by the god Ganesh as there are people willing to swear that they were abducted by aliens. The list could go on and on.

I just think that rather than assuming higher forces at work in all these cases, the most logical explanations are framed in terms of the psychology of religious experience as well as the psychology and sociology of propaganda.

[ruso]

If they are intelligents, don't came to the earth. Only Teal'c.

[Laudate_Dominum]

burp