Comments on the Nature of Music

[Mitchell_b55]

[font="Times New Roman"][color="#CC0000"][b]‘The use of sound to dispose the soul to virtue.’[/b][/color] is what Plato said in regard to music. I share this belief with the Philosopher. Since I was reading another thread about Rock & Roll I thought I would contribute what little I know of music. Since I do not listen to Rock & Roll or Rap I cannot speak from the perspective of one who has experience in the matter. I can however give you information on how I perceive music.

[color="#CC0000"][b]This comes from my introduction on the Check-in Thread:[/b] [/color] Mozart, Beethoven, Haydn, St. Gregory the Great, Fats Waller, Duke Ellington, Louis Armstrong, Frank Sinatra, Louis Jordan. When it comes to music, I enjoy Baroque and Romance Classical, Jazz, Swing, 1930's & 1940's Pop, Italian Opera, and Gregorian Chant.

[color="#CC0000"][b]Modern Rock and Roll, Pop, and Rap are distortions of melody, and are simply noise with a beat. [/b] [/color] This is my [i]personal opinion[/i], however, I do not condemn any one of them. If for someone it accounts for something less than my stated description then so be it.

My favorite instruments to listen to solo, are piano, violin, saxophone, and together my favorite is the string quartet. I also pray for the resurrection of the Barber Shop Quartet while other will attempt in vain to stifle my cries of encouragement.

[color="#CC0000"][b]The piano as the most versatile instrument is above all supreme in my eyes.[/b][/color]

I appreciate the opinion that Rock & Roll can be good. Regardless, for me it is not. It is an [i]irritant [/i] and causes [i]discomfort [/i] to me when I am subjected to it. For my person it does not dispose the soul to virtue, though for others it may or may not. I have little to contribute myself on this subject, but an acquaintance of mine wrote a detailed thesis’ on the subject which may interest some. I ask that whether one agrees with the premise or not would, however, remain open-minded and realize that such a stance does not require your acceptance of the premise. To appreciate the opinion of others in such subjects is an act of discretion and reserve.

This is not a debate, simply a laying of the law according to the mind of one, or of many. It does not have to be adhered to, but wishes only to present the truth of one individual in a neutral and appropriate subject.

[quote]The fact that people sometimes get so bent out of shape when they are given good reasons why their music is bad, should be an indication of how close to the passions this subject is and how important it is in the formation of a good character.

There is a distinction that is often not made in the beginning of such discussions, and that is the difference between the kind of music, and the lyrics.

It should be immediately apparent to any Catholic, that bad lyrics mean bad music- and this would cover all kinds of music- classical, rap, jazz, big band, folk, rock, etc. There would obviously be varying degrees of this, with maybe Rap lyrics on one side of the spectrum, and some operas on the other side of the spectrum [although the tragic nature of the story line usually neutralizes the more lewd aspects.] Nonetheless, most Catholics should agree that any music with bad lyrics shouldn't be listened to.
So much for lyrics, I think.

The other aspect of music, which is harder to discuss because there are no hard and fast rules but rather principles which should be followed, is the matter of the genre of music.

Plato points out that since music primarily affects the passions, there is good music and bad music. Especially in the education and formation of youth, it is essential that they be exposed to good music to order their souls correctly- to order the passions in the right way. There are many different kinds of passions. The Catholic Encyclopedia tells us:

'To explain the passions in their relation to virtue it is necessary to consider them first in the moral order. Some moralists have taught that all passions are good if kept under subjection, and all bad if unrestrained. The truth is that, as regards morality, the passions are indifferent, that is, neither good nor bad in themselves. Only in so far as they are voluntary do they come under the moral law. Their motions may sometimes be antecedent to any act of the will; or they may be so strong as to resist every command of the will.'

So in other words, the passions only become good or bad depending on how the will uses them, or controls them. Carnal desire is good when it is used at the right time- according to right reason, carnal desire is bad, when acted upon at the wrong time- either because someone does not think it is bad, or because someone cannot control themselves. All of the passions are like this.

Before the Fall, Adam and Eve had perfect control of all of these passions. After the Fall, the passions are no longer subject to the will, and thus we have the famous, "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak" dilemma, where the passions tend to rule over the reason, instead of the other way around. A person is virtuous who uses his passions in the correct way, he is vicious when he uses his passions in the wrong way.

Now both Virtue and Vice are habits. No child is born virtuous or vicious, he learns these things over time. [Note that this is not the same thing as personality tendencies which we are all born with.] This is why it is so important to teach virtue from the very infancy of a child. Every experience reinforces habits which are either good or bad [many may be neutral, or cultural] before the age of reason, so that once a child can reason, he can much more easily control himself, without thinking too much about it. It is much harder for an adult to become virtuous if he wasn't before, because his reason and will are working against his disordered passion.

Now, back to music. Since music affects the passions, it is apparent that it forms a certain habit of soul, every time it is listened to. No one is born loving rock and roll- it is an acquired taste. No one is born loving Gregorian Chant- it is learned through exposure. Depending on how the passions have been formed, certain people will enjoy certain kinds of music. That's why, "but I LIKE jazz!" can never be an argument for its goodness or badness.

Different kinds of music arouse different passions. Some music makes us feel happy, others sad, depressed, angry, lonely, desirous, etc. It should be apparent that music that emphasizes one passion in excess of another, would cause that passion to be overdeveloped to the detriment of the others. Someone who tends to be depressed should not listen to a lot of depressing music. There is nothing wrong with feeling sad- but if you are sad all the time, and cannot or do not wish to be happy, that is disordered. Someone who has a hard time controlling their lust [and that goes for most of us, and even more so today] should not listen to music that arouses this passion to an excess. It will be doubly hard to control it, since the arousal is totally involuntary.

There are also other aspects to consider in music. Melody, and rhythm. Others have demonstrated before, that the rhythm of Rock music is excessive, and that makes it objectively inferior to other kinds of music where the melody is more in balance with the rhythm. Please notice I did not say "bad" but inferior. Kraft macaroni and coagulated milk is inferior to imported pasta. They both keep your body alive, and do the same thing- satisfy hunger. It can be shown, however, that the quality of food that we eat is more important than the amount that we ingest- we will be overall healthy or unhealthy. It is not the eating of one Twinkie cake that causes a body to become sickly, but the eating of many such things over time. Rock music- or any music that emphasizes beat- the lesser of the elements of music- is like junk food for your soul.

There are also different kinds of rhythm. And here is where we get to the difference between country music and rock music. It isn't the strength of the beat that distinguishes them. Country music- and by this I mean folk music of various kinds, NOT modern country- uses a different kind of rhythm than rock music. The rhythm of rock music is manifestly inferior, because it places the emphasis on the down beat instead of the first beat.

Folk and classical music emphasize the first beat:
ex. [b]1[/b]-2-3, [b]1[/b]-2-3, [b]1[/b]-2-3, or
[b]1[/b]-2-3-4, [b]1[/b]-2-3-4, [b]1[/b]-2-3-4,
etc.

Rock music, on the other hand has beats like this:
1-[b]2[/b]-3-4, 1-[b]2[/b]-3-4, 1-[b]2[/b]-3-4, 1-[b]2[/b]-3-4 or
1-2-[b]3[/b]-4, 1-2-[b]3[/b]-4, 1-2-[b]3[/b]-4, 1-2-[b]3[/b]-4 or
1-2-3-[b]4[/b], 1-2-3-[b]4[/b], 1-2-3-[b]4[/b], 1-2-3-[b]4[/b],
etc.

If you tap these out with your hand, or say them out loud, you can see the difference immediately. With the set of rock beats it is rather hard not to start swinging your body back and forth, for this is what it encourages. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but most people can see that it encourages certain behavior, like dances that may be inappropriate for mixed company- something more appropriate for the bedroom than the ballroom [or bonfire.]

Melody is also important, and atonal music is clearly disordered, since it doesn't even use a scale which is mathematically derived. Many kinds of jazz are like this. Much of modern classical music is like this. Now note that this isn't the same as dissonance, of which the resolution in a song is very pleasing. Dissonance for dissonance's sake is disordered, however.

Also, there is one more thing to consider in this debate- the origin and development of rock music in Western Culture. You can follow a slow progression from better to worse in the forms of music from the Protestant Revolution to today. Slowly, unsatisfactory elements were gradually introduced, reflecting the periods and the popular ideas of the day. If art imitates nature, then music as an art form, certainly tells us a lot about the people who write and perform it.

Beethoven was very different from the Baroque music, because so much of it is so passionate. It reflects a certain revolutionary spirit, which was very much alive in his time. That does not make his music bad, but it does explain where it comes from. Also consider the Romantics- Debussy, Ravel- very typical of their time in it's excessive sentimentality- also reflective of society.
With the Industrial Revolution through the beginning of the twentieth century you find more and more deviations from the orderedness of Bach and Vivaldi, until we get to music that is actually atonal and follows no objective order other than the way that the composer wrote the notes down.

In the same way, folk music has degenerated into modern rock, modern country, and jazz [someone already made the distinctions between different kinds of jazz- I'm not saying all of it is bad!] I'm not going to get into this.

Much of what I am saying, is that it is not strictly correct to say that "rock music is bad." But there are very many characteristics of rock and other popular forms of music that should be warning signs for Catholics to avoid it at all costs, and try to cultivate a taste for objectively better kinds of music. A baby must take milk before he can take meat, and similarly, folk music [which I think is great stand-alone] can be used to train the ear to enjoy good classical music and liturgical music.[/quote]

Now it should be apparent from the aforementioned list of musical genres that I do not adhere specifically to the love of absolute musical order. I still love the music of the 1930’s and 1940’s for it’s nostalgic vocals. However, I agree in the most part with the premise about Modern Rock, Modern Country, and even some Jazz, which I must admit is not all good. Perhaps we don’t all adhere to these rules, but I wonder how many can specifically argue them. Whether they are extremist or not, they seem good guides and I feel that even if one is not convinced, perhaps it is because we have lost hold of the beauty of the music of our cultural past. It seems to me that so much more work went it to composition during the past than in today’s instant gratification culture. Of course the mastery of a piece of music is no longer necessary if a bad song can make you millions with as little work as possible. It is not only the method of Rock & Roll that repels me, but the culture surrounding it. Again I do not condemn it, but I feel that for me it is nothing but wasted sound waves.

[color="#CC0000"][b]In Christ my Lord and Redeemer,[/b][/color]

Petrus Scholasticus, the Student of Peter.[/font]

Edited August 2, 2006 by petrus_scholasticus

[N/A Gone]

[quote]Modern Rock and Roll, Pop, and Rap are distortions of melody, and are simply noise with a beat. This is my personal opinion, however, I do not condemn any one of them. If for someone it accounts for something less than my stated description then so be it.
[/quote]

sir, you sound old here. Music is often times based on the experience one has with a certain style of music. In my case I have been part of worship groups that used the forms of music you list above and I find it very edifying. The idea of it being "noise with a beat" is a classic response of someone from a prior generation that does not have experience with a new form of music or artestic expression. Now, dont misunderstand me. I believe that all music can be considered morally neutral and can either edify or harm the soul. I think we could look more into what music does for us. How it stirs the passions, influences emotions and so on.


my humble babble sir. I am still curious in your view of God and time.

[misereremi]

[quote name='petrus_scholasticus' post='1036298' date='Aug 2 2006, 05:05 PM']
It seems to me that so much more work went it to composition during the past than in today’s instant gratification culture.
[/quote]
I agree. You've made some interesting observations, I like reading others' perspectives on this subject and respect everyone's opinions however different they are from mine. I was born into a family of musicians and delight in making music as much as in listening to it. I love string instruments and think the guitar is one of the most versatile instruments. I like all different kinds of music, and appreciate talented musicians.

I agree with the points about how music can be negative through bad lyrics and how rhythms can rouse the passions, and how Catholics should be aware of the bad characteristcs. And yes I agree that there are negative subcultures attached to rock' n' roll and rap...(I would even say that classical music has a negative cultures). Most music outside chant and liturgical music can be negative.

I would respectfully disagree that musical genres outside of classical and folk are distorsions or noise, lacking melody. And I don't think the rhythms are "inferior" to classical and folk. The ryhthmic patterns that exist in music of African origin for example are very different from the classical 1-2-3-4. I was at a Ghanain funeral and the traditional mourning songs were sung to some beats that weren't dissimilar to some hip-hop beats.

The thesis you quoted mentions children's exposure to music. I remember reading some results of a study which had looked at the influence of musical genres on the development of children. It recommended that children be exposed to classical music. I think there is something in this, and in training the ear to appreciate complex quality music, and to listen to sounds from different families of instruments.

The important question I think is does the music ultimately lead you closer to God?

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Catholic hip-hop rules!

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Double post. By the way, I dig classical liturgical music (all Latin) and Gregorian chant. Catholic hip-hop is the most contemporary I get.

Edited August 3, 2006 by thedude

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Italian Opera ... glad I'm not the only fan.


Nothing can surpass Gregorian Chant and Italian Opera... nothing. End of story.

[Justified Saint]

Let's not forget the sacred polyphony of the Renaissance.

[Mitchell_b55]

[font="Times New Roman"][color="#CC0000"][b]Revprodeji:[/b][/color]

[i]Sir, you sound old here.[/i]

Dear Sir, are you conjecturing that I am anachronistic and archaic?
If so then I commend you your conjecture is appropriate in 98% of instances, a vast majority don't you think. Did I tell you, when not forced out of conveniance to communicate via this electro-box-thingy, I use a 1930 rotary telephone and have a 1936 Woodstock #5 Prototype Model Typerwriter which I use to compose my personal and public correspondences.

P.S. I'm 17.

However this archaic behaviour is not the root of either my theology of my musical preference. Old is not always better as some people tend to believe. I try to be open-minded in the case of musical styles.

[i]Music is often times based on the experience one has with a certain style of music.[/i]

In my case this is so.

[i]In my case I have been part of worship groups that used the forms of music you list above and I find it very edifying. [/i]

I appreciate that their are people who can stomach such things. I am not denying that it has merit for the individual, but I personally find it repulsive. If I can use the comparison, me and modern music have very little chemistry.

[i]The idea of it being "noise with a beat" is a classic response of someone from a prior generation that does not have experience with a new form of music or artestic expression.[/i]

I certainly realize that it is a classical expression and apply the expression to myself because I have immersed myself in the study of History and Learning. They are alien forms to me, just as they would be alien forms to a past generation. I cannot see beauty in them. Thus though I do not condemn them I also do not glorify them. In a way I can be called "old".

[i]Now, dont misunderstand me. I believe that all music can be considered morally neutral and can either edify or harm the soul.[/i]

In this we agree.

[i]I think we could look more into what music does for us. How it stirs the passions, influences emotions and so on.[/i]

I agree and the intent of this thesis was to show people that perhaps they should be more observant and aware of the music they listen to and the affect of it on there soul. A music imbibed with passionate a lustful melodyy could perhaps be avoided or if the listener is aware of the content of the music can brace themselves and still enjoy the music, without the effect.

[i]My humble babble sir. [/i]

My humble babble back, sir. :

[i]I am still curious in your view of God and time.[/i]

I will attempt to get around to it, I owe about three people explanations on three entirely different subjects and I am getting behind. This post was something had studied prior to it's post and thus didn't take as much time to compose, however to prepare something on God and Time would take a more thorough research and a careful explanation, since it seems that I can easily be taken to mean something that I did not intend. Rhetoric is not my forte.

[color="#CC0000"][b]Misereremi:[/b][/color]

[i]I agree. You've made some interesting observations, I like reading others' perspectives on this subject and respect everyone's opinions however different they are from mine.[/i]

Thank you. I too like hearing others opinions and that is why I am on a DISCUSSION Board.

[i]I was born into a family of musicians and delight in making music as much as in listening to it. I love string instruments and think the guitar is one of the most versatile instruments. I like all different kinds of music, and appreciate talented musicians. [/i]

I myself have little musical talent, but have found that my personality attracts musicians, whom constitute nearly all my friends. I have developed an archaic partisan ear for music that stems from the fact that my nearest and closest friends all listen to Bach, Strauss, Vivaldi, Beethoven, and Mozart and many Classical and Contemporary Jazz Musicians to boot. Because of this I have found I much prefer these musics and while I myself cannot produce them with any success study the philosophy and structure of the art. I admire a musician's talent and ability, something I do not possess. I have however shown myslf competant in the playing of the piano, however I cannot play the instrument. It is strange I can direct a person on how to play the instrument, but cannot myself play it. I have slowly lost my ability to react quickly and my hand-eye coordination is waning, because for the last five years I have been suffering from severe juvenile rheumatoid arthritis. You may notice that I only check the computer once a day, because more than thrity minutes of typing becomes strenuous.

[i]I agree with the points about how music can be negative through bad lyrics and how rhythms can rouse the passions, and how Catholics should be aware of the bad characteristcs. And yes I agree that there are negative subcultures attached to rock' n' roll and rap...[/i]

I feel that this cultural identification is probally a very serious thing.

[i](I would even say that classical music has a negative cultures). Most music outside chant and liturgical music can be negative. [/i]

The difference I think with the culture surrounding classical music is that classical music is not as widely identified with its culture. It is the public effect I think. Who associates Concerto in B flat for Piano, No. 2 with Mozart's hardly moral life.

[i]I would respectfully disagree that musical genres outside of classical and folk are distorsions or noise, lacking melody. And I don't think the rhythms are "inferior" to classical and folk. [/i]

Again I appreciate the opinion, though from my perspective I can not grant this allowance, since it sounds so horrid to my ears.

[i]The ryhthmic patterns that exist in music of African origin for example are very different from the classical 1-2-3-4. I was at a Ghanain funeral and the traditional mourning songs were sung to some beats that weren't dissimilar to some hip-hop beats.[/i]

This is not a genre I have experience with, I often find I am an isolationist European at heart.

[i]The thesis you quoted mentions children's exposure to music. I remember reading some results of a study which had looked at the influence of musical genres on the development of children. It recommended that children be exposed to classical music. I think there is something in this, and in training the ear to appreciate complex quality music, and to listen to sounds from different families of instruments. [/i]

I wrote something about this once I believe that the complexity of the compositions helps develop the childs intelligence.

[i]The important question I think is does the music ultimately lead you closer to God?[/i]

It depends, does Gothic Architecture point your heart to Heaven, and does Baroque Architecture bring Heaven down to earth, if this visual beauty can lead you closer to God , then perhaps the auditorial art forms also lead to a closer relationship to God. I myself believe that all things created by man have the potential to mirror some truth that God has given us. Since we mold the very things that God himself created.

[color="#CC0000"][b]The Dude:[/b][/color]

[i]Catholic hip-hop rules![/i]

I'll take your word for it.

[i]Double post. By the way, I dig classical liturgical music (all Latin) and Gregorian chant. Catholic hip-hop is the most contemporary I get.[/i]

Most Catholics should at least be able to find beauty in the Church's liturgical compositions.

[color="#CC0000"][b]Fides et Ratio:[/b][/color]

[i]Italian Opera ... glad I'm not the only fan.
Nothing can surpass Gregorian Chant and Italian Opera... nothing. End of story.[/i]

While I cannot grant that they cannot be surpassed I agree they are some of the most beautiful forms of music. Face it, when it comes to opera the French are lacking. [Maybe it's that I despise the language.]

[color="#CC0000"][b]Justified Saint:[/b][/color]

[i]Let's not forget the sacred polyphony of the Renaissance.[/i]

Indeed. Dufay, Ockeghem, and Josquin are some of my favorites. :

[b]By the way Misereremi:[/b]

These statements may conflict.

[i]I love string instruments and think the guitar is one of the most versatile instruments. [/i]

[i]The piano as the most versatile instrument is above all supreme in my eyes.[/i]

[color="#CC0000"][b][center]PIANO vs. GUITAR[/center][/b][/color]

[center] [/center]

On Gaurd!

Here is my invitation. With blade in line I will lunge and then use a straight thrust when we engage. My opinion stems from the fact that while the guitar may be slightly more versatile in its range of individual notes, the piano requires less manual dexterity and is overall creates a smoother and more flowing sound. Just a thought. Will you parry my advance, answer with a riposte, or will we disengage.

Anyway, how 'bout a drink after the battle.[/font]

Edited August 4, 2006 by petrus_scholasticus

[Aloysius]

You have definitely just gained a fan here. Great points about music, I have always drawn the line that music which emphasizes the beat too much draws the listener in less intellectually and more emotionally. When the beat is hidden, the listener must discover the time signature, listen for the symmetry, listen to the melody. When the beat is blasting, there is nothing to listen to.

Just think of the way people listen to music. Imagine the pretentious rich snob who, when listening to a peice of classical music, sticks his nose up in the air and squints his eyes in concentration. His own mind synthesizes a metronome. Now picture someone doing that when rock and roll or rap music comes on. Yeah, you said it, it looks silly. His mind needn't synthesize a metronome, the beat is blasted up. His mind can thus relax and listen to the primordial beat calling to mind the beat of his heart.

People get emotionally excited listening to classical music when their mind grabs hold of some amazing mathematical connection it makes, when their mind discovers the beat, rythem, and time. When the beat and rythem and time is blasted through the base, you skip all that and get emotional right away; and as such it is not tempered by the intellect.

But yeah, that's more simplistic; the arguments made in the quote in your first post are iron-clad. There is a difference in different types of music and its effect on people far more than just the lyrics and culture surrounding them (the culture surrounding them is generally an indication of their effects)

That's my opinion... the opinion of one nineteen year old old fogey.

darned kids and their loud music

All that said, though, I still support phatmass catholic hip hop, I can even listen to it and enjoy it. I think it's good to have this opinion and understand the inferiority compared to classical forms and then you can safely enjoy one of these types of music on their own, intellectually-lite music is good for you from time to time. Of course, I much more enjoy as my break from classical a bit of irish folk music

[Era Might]

Classical music is boring.

I laugh at the high-class cooking people on television. Food is a grand art to them. They try all sorts of crazy artistic things, everything has to be really fine and artsy. Whatever. Give me a steak and coagulated milk sub and I'm happy.

So it is with music. Some people take it too seriously. To each his own. Just leave me alone with my Hip Hop, and I won't bother you.

[quote]‘The use of sound to dispose the soul to virtue.’ is what Plato said in regard to music.[/quote]
Good quote. Hip Hop does just that for me, praise God!

[Mitchell_b55]

[font="Times New Roman"][color="#CC0000"][b]Aloysius:[/b][/color]

[i]You have definitely just gained a fan here. [/i]

I should start a fanlisting, it would aid my humility don't you think.

[i]Great points about music, I have always drawn the line that music which emphasizes the beat too much draws the listener in less intellectually and more emotionally. When the beat is hidden, the listener must discover the time signature, listen for the symmetry, listen to the melody. When the beat is blasting, there is nothing to listen to.

Just think of the way people listen to music. Imagine the pretentious rich snob who, when listening to a peice of classical music, sticks his nose up in the air and squints his eyes in concentration. His own mind synthesizes a metronome. Now picture someone doing that when rock and roll or rap music comes on. Yeah, you said it, it looks silly. His mind needn't synthesize a metronome, the beat is blasted up. His mind can thus relax and listen to the primordial beat calling to mind the beat of his heart.[/i]

Ah... Another intellectual who makes the connection between music and the intellectual stimulis it produces. Classical music requires contemplation and concentration is in this way rejected by msot of todays culture, which as I have stated has an instant gratification complex.

[i]People get emotionally excited listening to classical music when their mind grabs hold of some amazing mathematical connection it makes, when their mind discovers the beat, rythem, and time. When the beat and rythem and time is blasted through the base, you skip all that and get emotional right away; and as such it is not tempered by the intellect.[/i]

I see a beautiful friendship budding. A single, well tempered blade has much more ability than one which is formed from weak materials and is mass produced. It seems that in the past intellectuals developed to be unique creations, each well tempered by a different master. Today we a mass produced and are like mindless cows, each doing what the other does.

[i]But yeah, that's more simplistic; the arguments made in the quote in your first post are iron-clad. [/i]

I heavily respect the person who wrote it, they convinced me.

[i]There is a difference in different types of music and its effect on people far more than just the lyrics and culture surrounding them (the culture surrounding them is generally an indication of their effects)[/i]

Perhaps.

[i]That's my opinion... the opinion of one nineteen year old old fogey.[/i]

Well, my word, another one. *sticks out his hand* I am a seventeen year old coot.

[i]darned kids and their loud music [/i]

You needn't explain this phenomenon to me, I am well aware and very much worried.

[i]All that said, though, I still support phatmass catholic hip hop, I can even listen to it and enjoy it.[/i]

Thou art a brave soul.

[i]I think it's good to have this opinion and understand the inferiority compared to classical forms and then you can safely enjoy one of these types of music on their own, intellectually-lite music is good for you from time to time. Of course, I much more enjoy as my break from classical a bit of irish folk music [/i]

Intellectually-Lite Music for me is usually Jazz and 1930's and 1940's Popular Music as well as Big Band Music.

[color="#CC0000"][b]Era Might:[/b][/color]

[i]Classical music is boring.[/i]



[i]I laugh at the high-class cooking people on television. Food is a grand art to them. They try all sorts of crazy artistic things, everything has to be really fine and artsy. Whatever. Give me a steak and coagulated milk sub and I'm happy.[/i]

Why do you laugh at an art. It is grand art. You obviously have never tasted anything that is prepared as if it were a collosal work of genius. Your steak and coagulated milk sub would melt in shame. Of course an undeveloped palatte would never be able the taste the difference.

[i]So it is with music. Some people take it too seriously. To each his own. Just leave me alone with my Hip Hop, and I won't bother you.[/i]

I won't.

[i]Good quote. Hip Hop does just that for me, praise God![/i]

It should be a good quote, it is Plato. I am glad that it applies to you. I am afraid I am to ignorant to sympathize.[/font]

Edited August 4, 2006 by petrus_scholasticus

[Era Might]

[quote][/quote]
I raise your twitch with a blink.



[quote]Why do you laugh at an art. It is grand art. You obviously have never tasted anything that is prepared as if it were a collosal work of genius. Your steak and coagulated milk sub would melt in shame. Of course an undeveloped palatte would never be able the taste the difference. [/quote]
I'm proud to have an "undeveloped palatte". I'm do not come from high society, and have no desire to go there. It's just funny to me how food is so sophisticated for some people. I don't begrudge them that; if that's what they enjoy, good for them. But it would be a little silly for them to argue that their way of chopping onions is more in tune with human nature than mine is. Food and music are very similar arts. They both have their "sophisticated" and their "common" dimensions. I'm personally fine with that; like I said, to each his own. If you like your beat rhythms one way, you're entitled. But your beats are no more the "right" or "only" way than your onion chopping techniques. :

[quote]It should be a good quote, it is Plato. I am glad that it applies to you. I am afraid I am to ignorant to sympathize.[/quote]
Not ignorant, just coming from different sides of the track. No big deal. You do what you do, and I'll do what I do.

I enjoy classical music in a certain context, especially stuff like chant. I don't "understand" it, I don't sit there an analyze "mathematics", but I enjoy it. But, it's not entertainment for me; some people can enjoy it as entertainment, but I can't. Some people enjoy reading, some people enjoy going to the movies. Some people enjoy classical music, some people enjoy popular music.

"De gustibus non est disputandem"; "There is no arguing about taste."

[Domine ut Videam]

I can see both sides of the debate here. Here is a quote by Luigi Guissani, the founder of CL:

"I love life because I love Christ!"

I think that you both are right in a sense. Both of what you love is an art, the hip hop and the classical music is art. Both can be finely tuned music if used to glorify God and thus fulfill the human person.

Myself, I am sorry Era, I do not like hip-hop, rap, any of that jazz..... I am a classical person through and through. I love to play piano and hear the notes flowing over eachother. Mozart is one of my most favorite composers. If i ever want to feel close to God that is all i have to do, just listen to Mozart.

But i am sure that for other people it is different. Because we are not all the same, and we do not all like to listen to the same music. Thank goodness that we don't, the world would be so boring. If every song was the same, if every piece ahd the same notes, if we only had one instrument. But we don't. We have our imaginations.......and thus many different musics types and variations.....

-Yours in Christ
Lauren

[Era Might]

[quote name='Domine ut Videam' post='1037479' date='Aug 4 2006, 01:40 PM']Myself, I am sorry Era, I do not like hip-hop, rap, any of that jazz..... I am a classical person through and through. I love to play piano and hear the notes flowing over eachother. Mozart is one of my most favorite composers. If i ever want to feel close to God that is all i have to do, just listen to Mozart.

But i am sure that for other people it is different. Because we are not all the same, and we do not all like to listen to the same music. Thank goodness that we don't, the world would be so boring. If every song was the same, if every piece ahd the same notes, if we only had one instrument. But we don't. We have our imaginations.......and thus many different musics types and variations..... [/quote]
Definitely. I can't stand rock music. It's just not my thing. It doesn't bother me when people don't like the music (or hobbies in general) that I do; although it does bother me when people try to infringe on my legitimate freedom as a Christian to discern these kinds of things for myself, without being lectured about how evil modernity is (not that anyone has done that here, just speaking in general about some people who rail against popular music). I think all art can be used for evil purposes, and that includes music. But just as film is used for right purposes, by Christians and non-Christians, the same is true of modern music.

[Mitchell_b55]

Era Might, Touché. That was amusing, to say the least.

[quote]I'm proud to have an "undeveloped palatte".[/quote]

This is a statement of absolute clarity and innocence, how can argue that?

[quote]Not ignorant, just coming from different sides of the track. No big deal. You do what you do, and I'll do what I do. [/quote]

I suppose a truce, could be arranged between ourpersons. Of course, you'll want a simple handshake, and I will want it drafted in all it's Napoleonic Magnificence in a French Chateau.

"De gustibus non est disputandem"; "There is no arguing about taste."

While I agree with this quote, it is defended in most of what I wrote. Although I still disagree with the equality of music, perhaps I'm not a good enough American.

[quote]"I love life because I love Christ!"[/quote]

To you too, Touché.

A simple statement like that rivals all the bastions of intellect.

By the way, I just listened to Wagner's [i]Liebestod [/i] on Washington's Classical Station, magnificent.

Edited August 4, 2006 by petrus_scholasticus