Palestinians fake News footage

[jswranch]

[url="http://www.seconddraft.org/movies.php"]This company investigates news reports and footage. [/url]

My favorite is the injured guy who answers a cell phone and the corpse that gets back on the stretcher.

[curtins]

The whole Qana incident was very much staged.
I'm not denying those poor people died but the hezbos set up their rockets right next to the building knowing full well the Israelis would target it. Also there was 7-8 hours between the strike and the collapse of the building. Then they parade the dead bodies of the kids around for the media to see to make Israel look bad.

[misereremi]

What happened in Qana was absolutely awful, no "staging" could make it look/sound worse than it was. It filled me with sorrow to hear the news over the radio, that this happened again in Qana were Our Lord did his first miracle.

Some people are still very traumatised by the 1996 massacre, on a UN base sheltering civilians, which had been on the map since the 70's, so should have been known to those who dropped the bombs. Too many accidents are happening in these wars. We can tak about blaming X or Y but the facts remain that children are being killed. That is just wrong.

I don't trust much of the media, but those people did die, and I mourn this loss of life, especially of the children. May they rest in peace.

[curtins]

Those peoples' blood is on the hands of the Hezbos. They set up their rockets right next to the building knowing full well Israel would take it out and then they could parade their dead children in front of the cameras as PR against Israel. Don't you think its interesting that there was 7 hours between the strike and the collapse???

[musturde]

[quote name='curtins' post='1035583' date='Aug 1 2006, 01:08 PM']
The whole Qana incident was very much staged.
I'm not denying those poor people died but the hezbos set up their rockets right next to the building knowing full well the Israelis would target it. Also there was 7-8 hours between the strike and the collapse of the building. Then they parade the dead bodies of the kids around for the media to see to make Israel look bad.
[/quote]

They were digging up the bodies on the news live. Hezbollah really couldnt have added much to it. It was already a very sad scene.

[Mateo el Feo]

Back to the thread topic...
[quote name='jswranch' post='1035582' date='Aug 1 2006, 02:03 PM']
[url="http://www.seconddraft.org/movies.php"]This company investigates news reports and footage. [/url]

My favorite is the injured guy who answers a cell phone and the corpse that gets back on the stretcher.
[/quote]Interesting link. It's worth looking at the videos to see how the game is played.

If someone could convince himself that Allah wants him to strap a bomb to his chest and kill Jews indiscriminantly (i.e. woman and children are seen as legitamate targets), then I find it hard to believe that that same person could convince himself that Allah would be happy with staged propoganda. Suicide for Allah...lying for Allah. Quite an evil and deceitful concept of a deity, if you ask me.

[misereremi]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1036331' date='Aug 2 2006, 06:15 PM']
Back to the thread topic...
Interesting link. It's worth looking at the videos to see how the game is played.

If someone could convince himself that Allah wants him to strap a bomb to his chest and kill Jews indiscriminantly (i.e. woman and children are seen as legitamate targets), then I find it hard to believe that that same person could convince himself that Allah would be happy with staged propoganda. Suicide for Allah...lying for Allah. Quite an evil and deceitful concept of a deity, if you ask me.
[/quote]
I have watched these videos, and other fabricated scenes from different conflicts, not only from so-called followers of Allah. Deceitful men can be found pretty much everywhere in the media. What they cover up is even more worrying. I think it is both pathetic and deplorable that people feel the need to act out these things when so many REAL atrocities and massacres are taking place.

But the actions of these deceitful people cannot make me belittle, or doubt that massacres like Qana took place.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='misereremi' post='1036759' date='Aug 3 2006, 03:52 AM']I have watched these videos, and other fabricated scenes from different conflicts, not only from so-called followers of Allah. Deceitful men can be found pretty much everywhere in the media. What they cover up is even more worrying. I think it is both pathetic and deplorable that people feel the need to act out these things when so many REAL atrocities and massacres are taking place.

But the actions of these deceitful people cannot make me belittle, or doubt that massacres like Qana took place.[/quote]You are free to judge the images as you see them, in the case of Qana. On the other hand, the Qana death toll had to be revised down from 54 to 28 (according to Human Rights Watch), so it is still prudent to doubt the numbers.

The problem that some Muslims have created is that they are so often seen fabricating propoganda, it is very difficult to simply give them credence when a real tragedy like Qana happens.

As it has been said:
1) Hezbollah rejoices when Israeli civilians die. Who would believe that their rockets were targeting IDF military targets? Along with their master in Iran, their stated goal is to "wipe Israel from the map." Killing her citizens supports this goal.
2) And Hezbollah rejoices when Lebanese civilians die. It helps their recruiting effort. If they cared about Lebanese civilians, why would they use them as human shields?

[misereremi]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1036880' date='Aug 3 2006, 04:32 PM']
You are free to judge the images as you see them, in the case of Qana. On the other hand, the Qana death toll had to be revised down from 54 to 28 (according to Human Rights Watch), so it is still prudent to doubt the numbers.

The problem that some Muslims have created is that they are so often seen fabricating propoganda, it is very difficult to simply give them credence when a real tragedy like Qana happens.

As it has been said:
1) Hezbollah rejoices when Israeli civilians die. Who would believe that their rockets were targeting IDF military targets? Along with their master in Iran, their stated goal is to "wipe Israel from the map." Killing her citizens supports this goal.
2) And Hezbollah rejoices when Lebanese civilians die. It helps their recruiting effort. If they cared about Lebanese civilians, why would they use them as human shields?
[/quote]
I agree with you Mateo. It seems we are not being shown the same images. The images of Qana that I saw in the UK (I think they are from BBC contacts) included mangled and some bloody bodies caked in dust, people who could not escape because they were too poor (RIP), not people in clean tshirts. They were difficult to look at.

It is difficult to know the truth unless you were there, or have friends or relatives over there who can tell you what's really going on. I know some Israelis rejoice when Muslim civilians die as well, and that the Israeli army isn't innocent.

As a mother, I feel very strongly for any child that has been murdered. It seems everybody dies but the terrorists, so it does look like collective punishment however unintentional. I can understand the difficulties that the human shield predicament presents (it's just sick and cowardly) and it's definitely not easy for the Israeli soldiers, but civilian death on such a large scale is simply awful.

I fear that even if Hezbollah are annihilated, a new terrorist organisation will simply rise up to take its place. Prayers and penance for an end to this war.

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='misereremi' post='1037322' date='Aug 4 2006, 03:58 AM']
I fear that even if Hezbollah are annihilated, a new terrorist organisation will simply rise up to take its place. Prayers and penance for an end to this war.
[/quote]
I agree with what you suggest in your post – esp the “prayers and penance"

A few thoughts I have:

1 – it is possible to defeat an ideology in a war
2 – it has been done in the past
3 – Nazism, secular fascism, and others have been reduced to a non-threat in previous wars – and countless human lives have been spared because of this
4 – Islamic Fascism can be reduced to a non-threat in this war …if we successfully fight this military war
5 - we are fighting FOR OUR LIVES - and for the lives of our brothers and sisters who DO NOT UNDERSTAND THIS, who do not "get it" (sad but true)
6 – they – the Islamofascists- are fighting a military war against us all, whether we chose to fight back or not. They don't care - as long as they win

[stephen]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1046055' date='Aug 18 2006, 01:40 PM']

A few thoughts I have:

1 – it is possible to defeat an ideology in a war
2 – it has been done in the past
3 – Nazism, secular fascism, and others have been reduced to a non-threat in previous wars – and countless human lives have been spared because of this [/quote]

Actually, the ideologies of racial supremacism and extreme nationalism are alive and well in the Israeli state today. So much for those thoughts.


[quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1046055' date='Aug 18 2006, 01:40 PM']
4 – Islamic Fascism can be reduced to a non-threat in this war …if we successfully fight this military war [/quote]

And do you recommend the same violent measures for overcoming the Israelis' racial supremacy and extremist nationalism?

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1046055' date='Aug 18 2006, 01:40 PM']
5 - we are fighting FOR OUR LIVES - and for the lives of our brothers and sisters who DO NOT UNDERSTAND THIS, who do not "get it" (sad but true)
6 – they – the Islamofascists- are fighting a military war against us all, whether we chose to fight back or not. They don't care - as long as they win
[/quote]

Why do you persist in teaching Talmudic ethics at a Catholic forum? What from the Catholic canon can you cite in support of your "kill them first" position? Nothing, that's what. "Preemptive" war is not Catholic, period.

Here is where the support for your ethics is found, in the Tamud of rabbinic Judaism:

[quote] "... preventive war, when an enemy conspires to wipe you out – and has clearly stated plans to destroy your people and state through violent means - you have a right not only to self-defense but a right to pre-emptive war. The Talmud teaches, 'when someone comes to kill you, rise up and kill him first.'"

[url="http://www.icci.co.il/war.htm"]http://www.icci.co.il/war.htm[/url] [/quote]

[quote name='curtins' post='1035583' date='Aug 1 2006, 04:08 PM']

I'm not denying those poor people died but the hezbos set up their rockets right next to the building knowing full well the Israelis would target it. [/quote]

That is patently false.

Here's the evidence that what you say is a falsehood.

[quote][size=3][b]'No Hezbollah Rockets Fired from Qana'[/b] [/size]
by Dahr Jamail

QANA - Red Cross workers and residents of Qana, where Israeli bombing killed at least 60 civilians, have told IPS that no Hezbollah rockets were launched from the city before the Israeli air strike.


The Israeli military has said it bombed the building in which several people had taken shelter, more than half of them children, because the Army had faced rocket fire from Qana. The Israeli military has said that Hezbollah was therefore responsible for the deaths.

"There were no Hezbollah rockets fired from here," 32-year-old Ali Abdel told IPS. "Anyone in this village will tell you this, because it is the truth."

Abdel had taken shelter in a nearby house when the shelter was bombed at 1 am. When the bombings finally let up in the morning, he went back to the bombed shelter to search for relatives.

He found his 70-year-old father and 64-year-old mother both dead inside.

"They bombed it, and afterwards I heard the screams of women, children, and a few men -- they were crying for help. But then one minute after the first bomb, another bomb struck, and after this there was nothing but silence, and the sound of more bombs around the village."

Masen Hashen, a 30-year-old construction worker from Qana who lost several family members in the air strike on the shelter, said there were no Hezbollah rockets fired from his village. "Because if they had done that now, or in the past, all of us would have left. Because we know we would be bombed."

Qana had been a shelter because no rockets were being fired from there, survivors said. "When Hezbollah fires their rockets, everyone runs away because they know an Israeli bombardment will come soon," Abdel said. "That is why everyone stayed in the shelter and nearby homes, because we all thought we'd be all right since there were no Hezbollah fighters in Qana."

Lebanese Red Cross workers in the nearby coastal city of Tyre told IPS that there was no basis for Israeli claims that Hezbollah had launched rockets from Qana.

"We found no evidence of Hezbollah fighters in Qana," Kassem Shaulan, a 28-year-old medic and training manager for the Red Cross in Tyre told IPS at their headquarters. "When we rescue people or recover bodies from villages, we usually see rocket launchers or Hezbollah fighters if they are there, but in Qana I can say that the village was 100 percent clear of either of those."

Another Red Cross worker, 32-year-old Mohammad Zatar, told IPS that "we can tell when Hezbollah has been firing rockets from certain areas, because all of the people run away, on foot if they have to."

While IPS was interviewing people in Qana at the site of the shelter Monday, Israeli warplanes roared overhead. Vibrations from nearby bombing rattled many buildings. At least three villages in southern Lebanon were attacked in Israeli air strikes Monday.

Following the international outcry over the air strike, Israel declared a 48-hour cessation of air strikes in order to carry out a military probe into the Qana killings.

Despite the false Israeli statement that it was halting its air strikes, Israeli Justice Minister Haim Ramon told Army Radio that the stoppage "does not signify in any way the end to the war."

Israel has rejected mounting international pressure to end the 20-day-old war against Hezbollah. The United Nations has indefinitely postponed a meeting on a new peacekeeping force for southern Lebanon.

While defending the Israeli air strike on the civilians in Qana, Israel's ambassador to the United Nations Dan Gillerman told the UN Security Council that Qana was "a hub for Hezbollah", and said that Israel had urged villagers to leave.

Israeli Deputy Prime Minister Shimon Peres said in reply to questions in New York Monday that the bombing was "totally, totally its (Hezbollah's) fault.

Copyright © 2006 IPS-Inter Press Service[/quote]

[quote]"... It now appears that the military had no information on rockets launched from the site of the building, or the presence of Hezbollah men at the time.

The Israel Defense Forces had said after the deadly air-strike that many rockets had been launched from Qana. However, it changed its version on Monday...

... there were no rocket launches from Qana on the day of the strike..."

[url="http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/745185.html"]http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/745185.html[/url][/quote]

The "human shields" argument is absurd. The Israelis kill civilians as a matter of policy. It's plain as day. The Israelis killed more than 10 civilians for every Hezbollah militant they killed in the most recent invasion of Lebanon. Hezbollah, in contrast, killed 3 Israeli soldiers for every Israeli civilian they killed.

Which is the real terrorist organization here?

Edited August 25, 2006 by stephen

[Anomaly]

[quote name='stephen' post='1050262' date='Aug 25 2006, 03:11 AM']
Actually, the ideologies of racial supremacism and extreme nationalism are alive and well in the Israeli state today. So much for those thoughts.
And do you recommend the same violent measures for overcoming the Israelis' racial supremacy and extremist nationalism?
Why do you persist in teaching Talmudic ethics at a Catholic forum? What from the Catholic canon can you cite in support of your "kill them first" position? Nothing, that's what. "Preemptive" war is not Catholic, period.

Here is where the support for your ethics is found, in the Tamud of rabbinic Judaism:
That is patently false.

Here's the evidence that what you say is a falsehood.
The "human shields" argument is absurd. The Israelis kill civilians as a matter of policy. It's plain as day. The Israelis killed more than 10 civilians for every Hezbollah militant they killed in the most recent invasion of Lebanon. Hezbollah, in contrast, killed 3 Israeli soldiers for every Israeli civilian they killed.

Which is the real terrorist organization here?
[/quote]That's silly, Steve. Hezbollay endangers their own civillians because they aren't man enough to protect Lebanese women and children.

[stephen]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1050269' date='Aug 25 2006, 07:47 AM']
That's silly, Steve. Hezbollay endangers their own civillians because they aren't man enough to protect Lebanese women and children.
[/quote]



I suppose that the idea you intend to convey is that the Israelis who killed more than 10 times as many innocent civilians as they did Hezbollah guerillas during their most recent aggression, who shot at ambulances and refugee caravans, bombed UN camps and destroyed the civilian infrastructure of Lebanon from the safety of their US supplied F-16s, helicopters and tanks are [i]men[/i]? Do I have that right?

Edited August 25, 2006 by stephen

[Mercy me]

The point is that hezbolla aims almost exclusively at civilian targets. The Israelis are aimimg at military targets in civilian areas.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='stephen' post='1050539' date='Aug 25 2006, 03:28 PM']
I suppose that the idea you intend to convey is that the Israelis who killed more than 10 times as many innocent civilians as they did Hezbollah guerillas during their most recent aggression, who shot at ambulances and refugee caravans, bombed UN camps and destroyed the civilian infrastructure of Lebanon from the safety of their US supplied F-16s, helicopters and tanks are [i]men[/i]? Do I have that right?
[/quote]
My edit didn't take, I meant to make it clearer.
The Hezbollay are worse then COWARDS because they hide behind women's skirts and classrooms with children to shoot uncontrolled missles at civillians. Hezollays aren't brave enought to be called boys. I'd rate them as below animals. Even a pack of wolves are smart enough not to attack a bear cub when the mother is there. It's not a matter of whether or not Isreal is wrong and Hezzbollah is right in PRINCIPLE, it's a matter of sheer stupidity and cowardice in the manner that Hezzbollay continue to incite violence against a better armed foe by shooting missles from residential areas, schools, etc.
Don't curse the air for your wet face if you choose to spit into the wind.