Did Christ institute the Roman Catholic Church

[chris]

I have been reading quite alot of Church history and the graph I have shows that the first church instituted wasnt Roman, it was Greek. It also shows that we broke away from the "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" due to the Schism of 1054. Were we the Church that Christ talks about in Matthew 16:18? Or was the the Greek church?

Edited July 31, 2006 by Convert4888

[Era Might]

Actually, the first Church instituted was Jewish. The Apostles didn't start their mission to the ends of the earth until after the Lord's Ascension, and even then they started in Jerusalem and built up the Church there.

The question is not whether "Greek" or "Roman" Churches were founded first. The question is how does the authority of the Apostles perpetuate itself? As Catholics we would say it is perpetuated through the primacy of St. Peter, whose first See was in Antioch, but who established Rome as his final See of authority along with St. Paul before his martyrdom. The Bishop of Rome was recognized as the successor of St. Peter by the Fathers of the Church. We see this clearly in the writings of St. Irenaeus, for example, in the second century:

[quote]With this church [of Rome], because of its superior origin, all churches must agree—that is, all the faithful in the whole world—and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition.

--"Against Heresies"[/quote]

Edited August 1, 2006 by Era Might

[chris]

Thanks, I know about the Jewish Church. But, what is it about Roman Christains breaking away from One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church? This is shown in every Church history diagram I have seen. Is it true or am I looking at the wrong ones?

[Era Might]

Well, there's a difference between saying who founded the Greek and Roman Churches and which Church split from the other. Both Churches are Apostolic (not founded by Christ himself, but Apostolic). However, the Fathers of the Church always taught that unity with the Roman See was essential to unity with the universal Church. Pope Leo the Great, for example, wrote this 5 centuries before the schism between East and West:

[quote]Although bishops have a common dignity, they are not all of the same rank. Even among the most blessed Apostles, though they were alike in honor, there was a certain distinction of power. All were equal in being chosen, but it was given to one to be preeminent over the others . . . the care of the universal Church would converge in the one See of Peter, and nothing should ever be at odds with this head.[/quote]
Hence, the Church that is not in communion with the successor of St. Peter (the Bishop of Rome) is not in communion with the true Church.

Here's an explanation of the schism between East and West from an Eastern Catholic perspective:

[quote]The late Cardinal Yves Congar preferred to call it a "mutual estrangement" rather than a definitive break. Tensions between the Eastern and Western Churches had existed for centuries, but mutual tolerance and respect kept them from splitting. However, in 1054 these tensions erupted into an outright break - largely provoked by the intense personalities of two powerful individuals: Cardinal Humbert and Patriarch Michael Caerularius of Constantinople.

The actual excommunication of 1054 was a terrible tragedy. The papal legate, Cardinal Humbert of Silva Candida, issued the excommunication based largely on an inaccurate charge. In a shocking display of historical ignorance, he accused the Eastern Churches of removing the Filioque from the Creed. Acting on his own authority, without Papal approval, Cardinal Humbert issued the bull of excommunication that began this schism. At the time that the bull was issued, the Papal see was vacant, and Cardinal Humbert overstepped his authority by excommunicating the Patriarch of Constantinople.

With this in mind, we also have to recognize that Cardinal Humbert's protagonist, Patriarch Michael Caerularius, was a notorious hot-head. He was known for his bad disposition even among his own people, and sought theological quarrels where there were none. He certainly provoked Cardinal Humbert's ire by condemning the Latin Church for using unleavened bread, hardly a doctrinal issue. Patriarch Michael made such an issue over the unleavened bread that he even forecefully closed all of the Latin parishes in Constantinople!

Humbert wanted to confront Caerularius face to face about the closing of the Latin parishes. Caerularius refused to meet with him. Angered by this snub, Humbert walked right into Hagia Sophia in the middle of the Divine Liturgy and placed a bull of excommunication on the altar. Responding to Humbert's excommunication, Caerularius excommunicated the Latin Church. And so began a thousand years of schism.

Of course, I do not believe that this schism would have lasted as long as it has if it was not for the Fourth Crusade. But that is another story...

-[url="http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=391683&Forums=25&Experts=0&Days=2004&Author=&Keyword=mutual+estrangement&pgnu=1&groupnum=0&record_bookmark=2&ORDER_BY_TXT=ORDER+BY+ReplyDate+DESC&start_at="]Source[/url]-[/quote]

Edited August 1, 2006 by Era Might

[Socrates]

[quote name='Convert4888' post='1034926' date='Jul 31 2006, 04:52 PM']
I have been reading quite alot of Church history and the graph I have shows that the first church instituted wasnt Roman, it was Greek. It also shows that we broke away from the "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" due to the Schism of 1054. Were we the Church that Christ talks about in Matthew 16:18? Or was the the Greek church?
[/quote]
Sounds like you've been reading Greek Orthodox propaganda!
The Greek Orthodox broke away from the "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" due to the Schism of 1054, in which they rejected the authority of Rome. Whose authority did those loyal to Rome reject?

[chris]

Yeh, see I know a Greek Orthodox, and of course he will be sympathetic to his cause but, he said that Romish Churches never existed until the schism of 1054 thats what we were born out of. Because of the break of the Bishop and the filoque clause we became a new sect to the whole genre of Christianity.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Convert4888' post='1034938' date='Jul 31 2006, 05:09 PM']
Thanks, I know about the Jewish Church. But, what is it about Roman Christains breaking away from One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church? This is shown in every Church history diagram I have seen. Is it true or am I looking at the wrong ones?
[/quote]
Obviously, you are not looking at Catholic diagrams.
The diagrams you are looking at are probably either Greek Orthodox or protestant.
These groups would deny that the Catholic Church is the One Holy Apostolic Church.

However, the historical fact is that prior to 1054, the Bishop of Rome had always been recognized as head of the universal Church.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Convert4888' post='1034947' date='Jul 31 2006, 08:21 PM']Yeh, see I know a Greek Orthodox, and of course he will be sympathetic to his cause but, he said that Romish Churches never existed until the schism of 1054 thats what we were born out of. Because of the break of the Bishop and the filoque clause we became a new sect to the whole genre of Christianity.
[/quote]
Your friend doesn't seem to know history very well. The East and West were always separate entities, although they were in communion with one another. The Council of Constantinople in 381, for example, decreed:

[quote]The Bishop of Constantinople shall have the primacy of honour after the Bishop of Rome, because it is New Rome.[/quote]
The Patriarch of Constantinople (in the East) only had primacy AFTER the Bishop of Rome, whose primacy was over the entire Church.

Edited August 1, 2006 by Era Might

[chris]

Do you know of any I acurate timelines could look at?

Edited August 1, 2006 by Convert4888

[Socrates]

[quote name='Convert4888' post='1034947' date='Jul 31 2006, 05:21 PM']
Yeh, see I know a Greek Orthodox, and of course he will be sympathetic to his cause but, he said that Romish Churches never existed until the schism of 1054 thats what we were born out of. Because of the break of the Bishop and the filoque clause we became a new sect to the whole genre of Christianity.
[/quote]
The "Romish" Church had already existed since Peter. Those bishops who did not accept Papal authority broke away from the Church in the Eastern Schism of 1054.

That claim is about as accurate as saying that England did not exist until it broke away from America in the American Revolutionary War!

Here's some [url="http://catholic.com/library/Authority_of_the_Pope_Part_1.asp"]quotes from the Church Fathers supporting the primacy of Rome.[/url]

[url="http://catholic.com/library/Authority_of_the_Pope_Part_2.asp"]Here's some more.[/url]

(Note: These are all from the first to sixth centuries, long before the Schism of 1054.)

[url="http://catholic.com/library/Authority_of_the_Pope_Part_2.asp"]Here's a short explanation and history of the Eastern Schism and the Eastern Orthodox.[/url]

[chris]

Thanks... I guess I have been looking at the wrong stuff. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1034941' date='Jul 31 2006, 05:15 PM']
Well, there's a difference between saying who founded the Greek and Roman Churches and which Church split from the other. Both Churches are Apostolic (not founded by Christ himself, but Apostolic).
[/quote]

Whoa, what'ca talking bout, The Catholic church was not founded by Christ Himself, or some other "Romish Church" was not? I dont understand.

[chris]

Christ told his Followers to go and Preach his name because, he was to be taken back up into Heaven. It is the Church of Christ taught to us by Christ's followers. That is why in the creed it is Only Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. The church will always be Christocentric...Its his Church...

[Era Might]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1034991' date='Jul 31 2006, 09:45 PM']
Whoa, what'ca talking bout, The Catholic church was not founded by Christ Himself, or some other "Romish Church" was not? I dont understand.
[/quote]
The Catholic Church, yes, but not the Roman Church, that is, the particular Church in Rome that is one of 22 Churches that make up the Catholic Church. Christ left the Apostles to take the Gospel to all nations, including Rome. His ministry was to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, including the Apostles.

[KnightofChrist]

Ok, cool beans.