The "Israel" you don't see on TV

[musturde]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1037312' date='Aug 4 2006, 01:39 AM']
Here's Michel Aoun's wiki page. It's got a little info about the whole Hezbollah thing:
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Aoun"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Aoun[/url]
[/quote]

That page is biased... People blindly follow their leaders in Lebanon, whether it's Aoun, Geagea, Jumblat, or Hassan Nasrallah. Aoun allied with Hezbollah and now the aounis all support Hezbollah. I honestly don't like any Lebanese politician which is why i feel free to criticize this one. People in Lebanon don't really question their leaders. They love them too much. They see the good in them and try to justify the bad in them. I don't agree with that at all. It's possibly because these people led different parts of Lebanon during the war. The only leader I believe is truly Christian is too Christian to be a politician, let alone a Lebanese politician.

Edited August 4, 2006 by musturde

[Mateo el Feo]

I think Ruso's just having fun. By Sephardic, he means that he's in the Iberian Peninsula:
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sephardic"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sephardic[/url]

And by Maronite, he means...he's cool.

[quote name='musturde' post='1037451' date='Aug 4 2006, 11:46 AM']
That's page is biased...[/quote]You can edit it!

[musturde]

hehe, no point, I know it's gunna be edited as soon as I type something.

[stephen]

I don't agree with everything Rabbi Weiss of Jews United Against Zionism has to say and I don't support his upholding of the Pharisaic tradition, but this interview is most important because it illustrates the fact that the Zionist movement is a modern aberration, not only for Christianity but for rabbinic Judaism as well. For 1800 years Jews accepted their exile as the will of God and believed that only the messiah (whom they wait for in vain) could restore them to the Holy Land. This interview aired on Fox News and was conducted by Neil Cavuto:


[quote]Rabbi Weiss: This is the view that was shared throughout the past hundred years, when the whole movement of Zionism was created, the concept – the ideology – of transforming Judaism from spirituality, a religion, into materialism a nationalistic goal to have a piece of land, all the rabbinical authorities said this is antithetical with what Judaism is all about – expressly forbidden by the Torah because we are in exile by God.

Cavuto: So, you shouldn’t have a state? You shouldn’t have a country? You shouldn’t have a government?

We shouldn’t have a state. We should be living amongst all the nations as the Jews were doing for two thousand years as loyal citizens, people who are serving God, emulating God with compassion . . .

Contrary to what people believe, that it’s a religious conflict, we have been living for hundreds of years among Muslims and Arab communities without any UN human rights groups to watch…

Cavuto: Let me ask you this, Rabbi, was life better for the Jews prior to the creation of the Jewish state of Israel?

Weiss: 100%. In Palestine, we have the testimony of the Jewish community living there and other lands that they were living in harmony and they pleaded with the United Nations, in the documents we have, the chief Rabbi of Jerusalem said we do not want a Jewish state. The Muslim, Christian and Jewish inhabitants were ignored with the creation of the State . . .

Cavuto: Neverthless, you might not have had a country per se, but you were not a stranger to being abused or slaughtered over the millennia, particularly as recently as fifty sixty years ago?

Weiss: There is an issue of being killed because of anti-semitism, and then there’s another issue where you antagonize and you create your anti-semitism through Zionism . . . in other words, it’s not a free for all – you knock out your neighbors windows and yell anti-semitism.

Cavuto: I know you are an orthodox Jew, what do traditional Jews think of that position?

Weiss: [The mainstream Jewish view] is that, true, we shouldn’t be having a state, but once it’s created the Zionist propaganda that the Arabs want to throw every Jew into the ocean and there’s a ingrained hate against the Jews, which they’ve convinced many Jews to believe, this is why they’re fearful of returning the land . . .

Cavuto: Well you can’t blame them, right, I mean you have the president of Iran who says the Holocaust never existed and if he had his druthers he’d destroy Israel and all the Jews.

Weiss: That’s also patently false. He has a Jewish community in Iran and they haven’t murdered them when they had the opportunity to . . .

Cavuto: So, you don’t take him at his word that he would try to kill Jews?

Weiss: He would [want] the dismantling of the political state of Israel. In fact, we went, a whole group of Rabbis this last year to visit Iran, and we were taken up by the leaders, we met with the vice president, he [Ahmedinejad] was in Venezuela at the time, we met with religious leaders, all of them stated unequivocally that don’t have a conflict with [Jews]

Cavuto: So as long as Israel exists, Rabbi, you think – just itching for trouble

Weiss: Jews are suffering, Palestinians and Lea are suffering . . . we pray for the speedy and peaceful dismantlment of the Jewish state.

Cavuto: It’s interesting Rabbi, you don’t hear that view often.

[url="http://www.foxnews.com/video2/launchPage.html?072506/072506_cavuto_rabbi&Blame%20Israel%3F&Your_World&Jews%20United%20Against%20Zionism%20says%20Mideast%20violence%20would%20stop%20if%20Israel%20ceased%20to%20exist&World&-1&Blame%20Israel%3F&Video%20Launch%20Page"]Go here for video[/url]


[/quote]

Edited August 4, 2006 by stephen

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='musturde' post='1037453' date='Aug 4 2006, 11:59 AM']
hehe, no point, I know it's gunna be edited as soon as I type something.
[/quote]One of the goals for the Wiki is working toward a non-point-of-view perspective. On the Aoun page, there's quite a bit of discussion on the talk page, and most of it involves removing overtly pro-Aoun text.

See:
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Michel_Aoun#Massive_pro-Aoun_bias"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Michel_A...e_pro-Aoun_bias[/url]

[ironmonk]

[quote name='ruso' post='1037298' date='Aug 4 2006, 12:15 AM']
Israel is our enenmy,,. sorry.
[/quote]

No.

I see that you are from Spain... it is a shame how nominally Catholic Spain is - so many people claim to be Catholic and they are not Catholic at all, you should be careful not to fall into that group, maybe you can help fix your country. Islam is the enemy, and have been for over a thousand years... we must show our enemies love to win them for Christ. We cannot let our enemies continue to perform terrorists acts.

If it wasn't for the Crusades, you would be muslim now. They got Constantinople, but the Crusades stopped the evil from spreading to Spain and the rest of Europe.

Read the bible a few dozen times, and the Catechism a few dozen times... meditate on them and with time your outlook will form properly and you will see that Israel is not the enemy.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[stephen]

[quote name='ironmonk' post='1037509' date='Aug 4 2006, 01:45 PM']
Islam is the enemy, and have been for over a thousand years... [/quote]

Are Islamics the only enemy Catholics have, though?

[quote]Innocent, bishop, servant of the servants of God, to his cherished son Louis, illustrious king of France, greeting and apostolic benediction. The impious perfidy of the Jews--from whose hearts because of the enormity of their crimes our Redeemer did not lift the veil but still permits them to remain, as is fitting, in the blindness which is characteristic of Israel--not regarding the fact that Christian piety receives them only out of pity and patiently endures dwelling together with them, commits those enormities which stupefy hearers and horrify narrators. For these ingrates to the Lord Jesus Christ, who patiently awaits their conversion out of the richness of His long-suffering, showing no shame for their fault nor respecting the honor of the Christian faith, [b]and omitting or scorning the Mosaic law and the prophets, follow certain traditions of their seniors concerning which the Lord rebukes them in the Gospel, saying: Why do you transgress the mandate of God and irritate Him by your traditions, teaching human doctrines and mandates? [Matthew 15;9]

Upon this sort of traditions, which in Hebrew are called the Talmud--and there is a great book among them exceeding the text of the Bible in length, in which are manifest blasphemies against God and Christ and the blessed Virgin, intricate fables, erroneous abuses, and unheard-of stupidities--they nourish and teach their sons and render them utterly alien from the doctrine of the law and the prophets, fearing lest, if they knew the truth, which is in the law and the prophets, and which testifies openly that the only begotten son of God will come in the flesh, they would be converted to the faith and humbly return to their Redeemer.[/b] And not content with these things, they make Christian women nurses of their sons in contumely of the Christian faith, with whom they commit many shameful things. On which account the faithful should be afraid lest they incur divine wrath while they unworthily allow them to perpetrate acts which bring confusion upon our faith.

And although our cherished son, the chancellor of Paris, and the doctors teaching at Paris in holy writ, by the mandate of pope Gregory, our predecessor of happy memory, after reading and examining the said abusive book and certain others with all their glosses, publicly burned them in the presence of clergy and people to the confusion of the perfidy of the Jews, as we have seen stated in their letters, to whom you as catholic king and most Christian prince rendered suitable aid and favor in this, for which we commend your royal excellency with praises in the Lord and pursue with acts of grace: because nevertheless the profane abuse of the Jews themselves has not yet quieted nor has persecution yet given them understanding, we earnestly ask, admonish, and beseech your highness in the Lord Jesus Christ that against detestable and enormous excesses of this sort committed in contumely of the Creator and in injury to the Christian name, as you piously began, you laudably continue to proceed with due severity. And that you order both the aforesaid abusive books condemned by the same doctors and generally all the books with their glosses which were examined and condemned by them to be burned by fire wherever they can be found throughout your entire kingdom, strictly forbidding that Jews henceforth have Christian nurses or servants, that the sons of a free woman may not serve the sons of a handmaid, but as servants condemned by the Lord, whose death they wickedly plotted, they at least outwardly recognize themselves as servants of those whom the death of Christ made free and themselves slaves. So we may commend the zeal of your sincerity in the Lord with due praises. Given at the Lateran, May 9, in the first year of our pontificate. (Pope Innocent IV, May 9, 1244 Letter to King Louis IX of France, University Records and Life in the Middle Ages New York, Pg. 48-50, Lynn Thorndike : Columbia University Press, 1975) [/quote]

There are a great many other similar statements by weighty Catholic authorities found throughout the history of the Church. And there are many more such condemnations of Judaism in the Catholic canon than there are condemnations of Islam.

Edited August 4, 2006 by stephen

[Aloysius]

like I said before: I don't believe the nation-state of Israel ever should have been created either. but it would make me too nervous to dismantle the whole thing... the terrorists would be emboldened and move on to Christendom. Like Bin Laden's second in command said, they want an Islamdom that stretches from Spain to Iraq. THAT cannot be allowed, nor can Hezbollah be allowed to terrorize the entire western world.

I just feel like it's too late to take it back. Israel never should have been formed, it was a mistake of unspeakable proportions, but what are we to do?

[KnightofChrist]

The whole issue of Israel not having the right to exist, or it being a mistake to create it in the first place would be a non-issue if the state was Muslim, or Christian. Perhaps if Israel where an Christian State it would be praised, by christians, instead of criticized. However to Islamo Fascist, it would be hated all the same, if it was a nation of Islam.

[cmotherofpirl]

Hezbollah uses Christian villages as shields in missile attacks

Washington DC, Aug. 03, 2006 (CNA) - Recent reports indicate that Hezbollah is using Christian villages to shield its attacks against Israel.

According to Christian Solidarity International, Hezbollah is hiding among civilian populations, mostly in southern Lebanese towns, such as Ain Ebel, Rmeish, Alma Alshaab.

Launching attacks behind human shields is in violation of the Geneva Convention's provision for the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts, which prohibits the use of civilians as military shields.

This is not a new strategy for Hezbollah. Col. Charbel Barka, a former South Lebanese Army commander, says Hezbollah is repeating what it did in attacks against Israel in 1996.

A Christian from the village of Ain Ebel, who requested to remain nameless for fear of a reprisal from Hezbollah, reported that he found Hezbollah fighters setting up a launcher on his rooftop. Hezbollah fighters ignored his pleas to stop and fired the missiles. He immediately gathered his family and fled his home, which was bombed 15 minutes later by an Israeli air strike.

Hezbollah has also attempted to stop Christians from fleeing their villages. According to Christian Solidarity International, on July 28, Hezbollah fighters fired upon several Christians fleeing Rmeish with their families, wounding two.

Sami El-Khoury, president of the World Maronite Union, adds that media reports about Christian support for Hezbollah are inaccurate.

"Contrary to Western press reports, indicating high percentages of Christian support for Hezbollah, 90 percent of Christians, 80 percent of Sunni and 40 percent of Shiites in Lebanon oppose Hezbollah," El-Khoury told Christian Solidarity International.

Christian Solidarity International has called for the United Nations to establish a politically independent commission to investigate Hezbollah's contravention of international law. The group has also urged the UN Security Council to deploy immediately an international force in Lebanon to facilitate a ceasefire, to stop the flow of arms from Syria to Hezbollah, and to assist the Lebanese government in fulfilling its obligation to disarm Hezbollah.

Hezbollah has been the ruling power in the south since Israel withdrew from Lebanon six years ago. Christian villages suffer from extensive neglect of infrastructure under Hezbollah rule. Once the majority, the Christian population in Lebanon has declined to under 40 percent due to pressures by Islamic militias supported by Iran and Syria.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1037747' date='Aug 4 2006, 07:52 PM']
The whole issue of Israel not having the right to exist, or it being a mistake to create it in the first place would be a non-issue if the state was Muslim, or Christian. Perhaps if Israel where an Christian State it would be praised, by christians, instead of criticized. However to Islamo Fascist, it would be hated all the same, if it was a nation of Islam.
[/quote]

*not a nation of Islam. woopsy

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='stephen' post='1037587' date='Aug 4 2006, 01:45 PM']
Are Islamics the only enemy Catholics have, though?



There are a great many other similar statements by weighty Catholic authorities found throughout the history of the Church. And there are many more such condemnations of Judaism in the Catholic canon than there are condemnations of Islam.
[/quote]

But Jews are not our enemy as JPII said they are our "our dearly beloved brothers."

"The Jewish religion is not extrinsic to us but in a certain way intrinsic to our own religion. With Judaism, therefore, we have a relationship which we do not have with any other religion. You are our dearly beloved brothers, and, in a certain way, it can be said that you are our elder brothers."

- John Paul The Great

[Aloysius]

I wouldn't care what religion it was, a mass migration of people to take over a plot of land that they haven't controlled for over a millenium shouldn't be supported.

I'd feel the same way if a Basque state were created and had constant wars with Spain and France.

That rabbi on cavuto convinced me even more: there are religious reasons from even a Jewish perspective for why there should not be a modern nation-state of Israel.

again, the only problem with any dismantelling of the state of Israel is that every time one of these terrorist organisations gets what it wants, it moves on to something else. Pandora's box has been opened and there's really no way to stop it. But this all started because an entire land was taken away from its proper inhabitants and given to a group of immigrants.

this present conflict started because of Hezbollah, Syria, and Iran, though.

it's all a big mess.

[ruso]

My father was a Jew Sefardi converted al Christianity, he married with my mother a Lebanese of rite Maronita. I growi in a Libano in war, hating the Muslims, and dreaming of join with the militias of Aoun. Fortunately my family emigrate to Spain fleeing the war. None has returned since then.
The facts are that Israel does not have right to destroy the Libano, not even as "self-defense".
The only that have managed to is to join with all the Lebanese in the hatred to Israel.
They have murdered almost 1000 innocent civilians, Israel bombard the Christian zones.
The war can be extended to other countries.
Syria already this implied, of they are the missiles come of Hezbollah.
The descent of Christians in holy land itself due so much to the presion of Jews and Muslms.
It is Israel with its politic who to given thousands volunteers to the terrorists.
The anti-Christian feeling of many Jews iis very strong, to my father they consider a traitor, I don't know my family Jew.

Edited August 5, 2006 by ruso

[musturde]

[quote name='ironmonk' post='1037509' date='Aug 4 2006, 12:45 PM']
No.

I see that you are from Spain... it is a shame how nominally Catholic Spain is - so many people claim to be Catholic and they are not Catholic at all, you should be careful not to fall into that group, maybe you can help fix your country. Islam is the enemy, and have been for over a thousand years... we must show our enemies love to win them for Christ. We cannot let our enemies continue to perform terrorists acts.

If it wasn't for the Crusades, you would be muslim now. They got Constantinople, but the Crusades stopped the evil from spreading to Spain and the rest of Europe.

Read the bible a few dozen times, and the Catechism a few dozen times... meditate on them and with time your outlook will form properly and you will see that Israel is not the enemy.
God Bless,
ironmonk
[/quote]

Iron monk, your response was not in line with his comment... He's against the state of Israel, not Jews. You can be Catholic and against the acts of the state of Israel.

Edited August 5, 2006 by musturde