The "Israel" you don't see on TV

[musturde]

KnightofChrist, Hezbollah's homeland is Lebanon but it's controlled by other countries. The whole point of attacking Lebanon as a whole was to destroy all of Hezbollah's communications. Hezbollah declared war on Israel, which they have no right to do. They are not the state. They are a terrorist group. They do not even have power in the government (they have seats in the parliament, that's about it). Israel warned Qana they were going to strike there. The thing is, many areas couldn't really evacuate when they were asked to. I'm not sure if Qana applied. If the people didn't leave they may not have been able to. If they could have, it's kind of their fault that they didn't. However, it's still very sad. Israel should have known there were soo many people in the building. I'm very sure Hezbollah has weapons in that building. Israel has so far been pretty accurate about it's targets, even though it doesn't seem like it at first.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='musturde' post='1035648' date='Aug 1 2006, 02:15 PM']
KnightofChrist, Hezbollah's homeland is Lebanon but it's controlled by other countries. The whole point of attacking Lebanon as a whole was to destroy all of Hezbollah's communications. Hezbollah declared war on Israel, which they have no right to do. They are not the state. They are a terrorist group. They do not even have power in the government (they have seats in the parliament, that's about it). Israel warned Qana they were going to strike there. The thing is, many areas couldn't really evacuate when they were asked to. I'm not sure if Qana applied. If the people didn't leave they may not have been able to. If they could have, it's kind of their fault that they didn't. However, it's still very sad. Israel should have known there were soo many people in the building. I'm very sure Hezbollah has weapons in that building. Israel has so far been pretty accurate about it's targets, even though it doesn't seem like it at first.
[/quote]


I know, right on. Just pointing out the mans own words to him, that is stephen. Hence "by your own words." But yes you have good points, [u]perhaps[/u] the people did try to leave but Hezbollah wouldnt alow them to leave, trapping them, untill the building fell.

[musturde]

No I mean Israel told them to leave beforehand, as in, probably a couple of days before. Hezbollah has been known to shoot people leaving the south (which is why I feared my family in the south would never escape). This is mostly to keep civilians in so Israel won't bomb the south to pieces. They're afraid of upsetting the UN.

[stephen]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1035620' date='Aug 1 2006, 03:31 PM']While Wojtyla was a bishop, he took part in the historic Second VaticanCouncil convened by Pope John XXIII, which modernized aspects of church practice and doctrine. The Council also radically changed the Church’s relationship with the Jewish people when it issued the Nostra Aetate declaration in 1965, which cleared Jews of responsibility for the death of Jesus, renounced its traditional claim that Jews had been rejected by God, condemned anti-Semitism, and called for “mutual understanding and respect” between Catholics and Jews. As Pope, John Paul II would turn these words into actions ...

[/quote]

Dear Knight,
You wouldn't happen to be attempting to take credit for someone else's work, would you?

I'm referring to this essay, "Pope John Paul II and the Jews" written by Mitchell G. Bard, the director of the Jewish Virtual Library, the source of the essay you copied and posted here without crediting the author of the work.

Never mind then, I've sorted it our for you. And as long as I'm at it I'll point out that the decidedly Zionist slant of the essay reflects the decidedly Zionist agenda of it's author who serves as the Executive Director of the American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise (AIEC), and has also served as the editor of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee’s (AIPAC) weekly newsletter on US Middle East policy and who can be regularly seen on US news broadcasts peddling his apologia for the criminal Zionist state.

[url="http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/johnpaul.html"]http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsourc...m/johnpaul.html[/url]

[url="http://www.jnf.org/site/PageServer?JServSessionIdr005=lgw0tr4cz1.app23a&pagename=sb_Mitchell_G_Bard"]http://www.jnf.org/site/PageServer?JServSe...Mitchell_G_Bard[/url]

It doesn't surprise me at this point that you would choose a case hardened Zionist like Mitchell G. Bard as a source of information (propaganda) on a Catholic pope. It doesn't surprise me at all. I'm learning quite a bit about your "knighthood."

Edited August 1, 2006 by stephen

[musturde]

Stephen, there has to be a reason why you don't like Israel. Do you just not like them on your own judgement? Are you part of a political group that doesn't like them? I'm just interested in knowing. Usually Catholics in America support Israel... to my knowledge at least.

Edited August 1, 2006 by musturde

[stephen]

[quote name='musturde' post='1035660' date='Aug 1 2006, 04:42 PM']

This is mostly to keep civilians in so Israel won't bomb the south to pieces.
[/quote]

Isn't 800+ dead and 3200+ wounded civilians in 3 weeks plus the 20,000 civilians killed during the last occupation enough evidence that the Israelis aren't the slightest bit deterred by innocent civilians?

[quote]"A booklet published in 1973 by the Central Region Command of the Israeli army subscribes to this same (racist) doctrine. In it, the Command's Chief Chaplain writes:

'When our forces come across civilians during a war or in hot pursuit or in a raid, so long as there is no certainty that those civilians are incapable of harming our forces, then according to the Halakhah [Judaic Talmudic law] they may and even should be killed. Under no circumstances should an Arab be trusted, even if he makes an impression of being civilized In war, when our forces storm the enemy, they are allowed and even enjoined by the Halakhah to kill even good civilians, that is, civilians who are ostensibly good.'" (Israel Shahak. Jewish History, Jewish Religion-The Weight of Three Thousand Years. Pluto Press. London, 2002. P. 75-76).

Read the entire book here online for free:

[url="http://www.geocities.com/alabasters_archive/jewish_history.html"]http://www.geocities.com/alabasters_archiv...sh_history.html[/url][/quote]

[DAF]

Stephen, I'm just curious because I haven't been here for a couple days, but have you contributed anything to this [u]Catholic[/u] message board other than bashing our Jewish brothers and sisters and creating an atmosphere of tension and mistrust here on the board?

You claim to be a Catholic (though I don't believe I've ever seen you say so blatantly) while at the same time you continue to fester this obvious hatred for Judaism and Israel, who are our roots as Christians.

In plain terms I'm sick of you. I wont start a movement to get you kicked out of here, but I think that you're nothing but detrimental to the health and continuity of this board. I don't think I'm the only one who feels this way, but if the rest of the board is interested in evicting you, then so be it, I want nothing more to do with you and your disgusting antics.

[Anomaly]

I'm pretty much of the opinion that both sides should keep it up until all the combatants are killed off. The survivors would then be sick of it, know both sides are wrong, and live in peace.

The world should send free arms to both sides and peace will reign in less than 5 years. The economy will revive when it becomes popular for tourists again after the two militaries destroy each other.

[stephen]

[quote name='musturde' post='1035665' date='Aug 1 2006, 04:44 PM']
Stephen, there has to be a reason why you don't like Israel. Do you just not like them on your own judgement? [/quote]

In keeping with my concept of morality which has the teachings of the Catholic Church as it's reference point, I am absolutely opposed to Israeli injustices which are too numerous to list but which I've documented more than enough for any thinking person to recognize.

[quote name='musturde' post='1035665' date='Aug 1 2006, 04:44 PM']Are you part of a political group that doesn't like them? I'm just interested in knowing. [/quote]


I'm Catholic, period.

I don't run with any political pack. I don't subscribe to pack mentality. But I maintain that the pack mentality coupled with the incredibly well organized and financed Zionist propaganda and lobby machine is what accounts for whatever support the Israeli state receives from Catholics.

[quote name='musturde' post='1035665' date='Aug 1 2006, 04:44 PM']Usually Catholics in America support Israel... to my knowledge at least.[/quote]


How these people reconcile their support for the criminal Zionist state with Catholic teaching and tradition is a mystery to me. But it's a fact that errors and deceptions have led large percentages of Catholics astray in the past.

Edited August 1, 2006 by stephen

[Aloysius]

No Catholic must accept the current state of Israel as being a continuity in any way shape or form with the old tribe of Israel. Nor is it anti-semetic to disagree with the creation of the State of Israel in the first place. Nor is it anti-semetic to acknowledge the possibility that, just as there are some errors in Islamic morality which permit the killing of civilians, it just might be possible that some Jewish religious leaders promote the killing of civilians. The quote from the Yesha Rabbinnical Council sure seems to prove as much.

To anyone who really accepts the Jews' initial claim to this land in Palestine, are you willing to give over large portions of Spain and France to the Basque? How about giving North America back to the Indians?

On the flip side, it would be completely unwise to call for the dismantelling of the state of Israel, and that in and of itself would probably be just as much a mistake as creating Israel was in the first place. It's already been there for half a century, that means there have been generations of Jews born there. Giving all that land back to the Palestinians and what, expelling all the Jews that have their homes there, would be wrong. Not only that, but the militants would be strengthened even more and go on the attack attempting to have Islamdom cover all of Christendom.

What needs to happen is Israel needs to set definitive borders once and for all that do not move, as well as having definitive borders set for Palestine (so that if Palestine wars against Israel, there's a nation to declare war on right back). And those borders should have nothing to do with where the biblical promised land was or was not: it should have everything to do solely with who is living there now.

Hezbollah is wrong. Hezbollah is using human shields and cowardly fighting in the midst of residential areas bringing all who live there into imminent danger. The secular leaders of Israel seem to be attempting to follow international law as much as possible, but there are religious factors on their side which may make them reckless to civilians as well. Notice the Yesha Rabbinical Council is here making a statement saying that the government is too much considering Christian morality (by which I assume is meant international law) and should just wipe out everyone.

Hezbollah and Hamas are to blame for starting this present conflict. No Catholic can support either group in good conscience. Israel is on shaky grounds in a lot of these instances, and it appears they have no hope of winning against Hezbollah so they've basically just blasted the bajezus out of Lebanon for nothing.

but this is exactly what Hezbollah wanted. They wanted Israel to come and destroy the Lebanese infrastructure and kill a bunch of civilians while they gained popular arab support and turned the world against Israel at the same time. Guess what their next trick is? Hiding their leader in the Iranian embassy to draw Israel into a direct confrontation with Iran. It is not some zionist conspiracy here pulling the threads; it is in fact a well orchestrated plot Hezbollah has fashioned to acheive their objective of destroying Israel.

These are just a few thoughts. I would definitely and absolutely support Israel in a fight between Israel and Hezbollah; not because Israel has some biblical foundations or whatever (the Church is the new Israel, not a nation-state created in 1945), but because Hezbollah is a direct danger to all of Western Civilization, is a direct wing of Iran, has operatives all over the world, and makes Al Quaida's operations look like childplay. They are dangerous and must be destroyed, or make no mistake: they will destroy us.

throwing out the term "anti-semite" when one doesn't support a modern nation-state which chose the same name as a biblical tribe is irresponsible and completely inconducive to conversation, however.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='stephen' post='1035661' date='Aug 1 2006, 02:42 PM']
Dear Knight,
You wouldn't happen to be attempting to take credit for someone else's work, would you?

I'm referring to this essay, "Pope John Paul II and the Jews" written by Mitchell G. Bard, the director of the Jewish Virtual Library, the source of the essay you copied and posted here without crediting the author of the work.[/quote]

No, mistakes happen.. woops was busy at the time, and didnt notice I forgot to wrap it in a quote and add the link or source my bad.

[quote name='stephen' post='1035661' date='Aug 1 2006, 02:42 PM']
Never mind then, I've sorted it our for you. And as long as I'm at it I'll point out that the decidedly Zionist slant of the essay reflects the decidedly Zionist agenda of it's author who serves as the Executive Director of the American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise (AIEC), and has also served as the editor of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee’s (AIPAC) weekly newsletter on US Middle East policy and who can be regularly seen on US news broadcasts peddling his apologia for the criminal Zionist state.

[url="http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/johnpaul.html"]http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsourc...m/johnpaul.html[/url]

[url="http://www.jnf.org/site/PageServer?JServSessionIdr005=lgw0tr4cz1.app23a&pagename=sb_Mitchell_G_Bard"]http://www.jnf.org/site/PageServer?JServSe...Mitchell_G_Bard[/url]
[/quote]

Well thank you for pointing out my mistake. But just pointing out a "Zionist" wrote the essay dosent prove anything, I lack the hate for Jews that you have, just pointing out the "Zionist" doesnt prove anything. What about the essay is incorrect?

[quote name='stephen' post='1035661' date='Aug 1 2006, 02:42 PM']
It doesn't surprise me at this point that you would choose a case hardened Zionist like Mitchell G. Bard as a source of information (propaganda) on a Catholic pope. It doesn't surprise me at all. I'm learning quite a bit about your "knighthood."
[/quote]

Again so what if he's a "Zionist", what is unture in the part of the essay I posted?

[stephen]

[quote name='DAF' post='1035675' date='Aug 1 2006, 05:06 PM']


You claim to be a Catholic (though I don't believe I've ever seen you say so blatantly) while at the same time you continue to fester this obvious hatred for Judaism and Israel, who are our roots as Christians.[/quote]

Thank you for presenting me with the opportunity to dispel some myths.

First of all, the officially recognized religion of the Israeli state and religion of 99% of religious "Jews" living today is not the Old Testament religion of the Patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. No, the religion today called, "Judaism" is [i]rabbinic Judaism[/i]--the religion of the Pharisees; the nullification of the religion of the Old Testament.

[quote]"This is not an uncommon impression and one finds it sometimes among Jews as well as Christians - that Judaism is the religion of the Hebrew Bible. It is, of course, a fallacious impression ... Judaism is not the religion of the Bible" ( Rabbi Ben Zion Bokser, Judaism and the Christian Predicament, New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1967, p. 59).[/quote]

[quote]"The Jewish religion as it is today traces its descent, without a break, through all the centuries, from the Pharisees.

"Their leading ideas and methods found expression in a literature of enormous extent, of which a very great deal is still in existence. The Talmud is the largest and most important single member of that literature, and round it are gathered a number of Midrashim, partly legal (Halachic) and partly works of edification (Haggadic). This literature, in its oldest elements, goes back to a time before the beginning of the Common Era, and comes down into the Middle Ages. Through it all run the lines of thought which were first drawn by the Pharisees, and the study of it is essential for any real understanding of Pharisaism." (Universal Jewish Encyclopedia, Vol. 3 pg. 474)[/quote]

[quote]“Pharisaism became Talmudism, Talmudism became Medieval Rabbinism, and Medieval Rabbinism became Modern Rabbinism. But throughout these changes of name, inevitable adaptation of custom, and adjustment of Law, the spirit of the ancient Pharisee survives unaltered”. ( Rabbi Dr. Finkelstein, The Pharisees: The Sociological Background of Their Faith, pg. xxi)[/quote]

So it is well established that the "Judaism" of today--rabbinic Judaism--is the tradition of the Pharisees perpetuated by the rabbis and not the religion of the Old Testament.

What does our Lord, Jesus Christ tell us about the traditions and doctrines of the Pharisees:

[quote]"Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees... Then they understood that he said not that they should beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees." Mark 16: 6;12)[/quote]

[quote]"Then came to him from Jerusalem scribes and Pharisees, saying: Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the ancients? ... But he answering, said to them: Why do you also transgress the commandment of God for your tradition? ... Hypocrites, well hath Isaias prophesied of you, saying: This people honoureth me with their lips: but their heart is far from me. And in vain do they worship me, teaching doctrines and commandments of men." (Matthew 15: 1; 3; 7-9)[/quote]

[quote]"And he said to them: Well do you make void the commandment of God, that you may keep your own tradition... Making void the word of God by your own tradition, which you have given forth. And many other such like things you do." (Mark 7: 9; 13)[/quote]

[quote]"For if you did believe Moses, you would perhaps believe me also; for he wrote of me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?" (John 5: 46-47)[/quote]

So, our Lord Jesus Christ tells us to beware the man-made doctrine of the Pharisees. Jesus tells us that the tradition of the Pharisees makes void God's Word. He tells us that the Pharisees worship in vain. He says that the hearts of the Pharisees are far from Him, and He cuts the Pharisees off from the Old Testament Patriarchs stating that they can't believe Moses without also believing in Him.

This is the tradition of rabbinic Judaism--the Pharisaic tradition wholly condemned by Christ; the tradition of the Pharisees who executed Christ. A tradition which to this day maintains that Christ deserved to be executed because He challenged the hypocrisy of the Pharisees. Rabbinic Judaism most certainly is not the root of the Christian faith.

The faithful Patriarchs of the Old Testament are the root of the Christian faith, they whom Jesus said the Pharisees could not believe because they did not believe on Him.

Now on the matter of Israel, I have stated that the Church is Israel and I love the Church. That criminal state in the Middle East that calls itself "Israel" causes me great concern, however because of it's injustices and it's usurping of a title which does not rightly belong to it. I reserve the right, as did St. Pius X, to reject the Zionist movement as invalid.


[quote name='DAF' post='1035675' date='Aug 1 2006, 05:06 PM']In plain terms I'm sick of you. I wont start a movement to get you kicked out of here, but I think that you're nothing but detrimental to the health and continuity of this board. I don't think I'm the only one who feels this way, but if the rest of the board is interested in evicting you, then so be it, I want nothing more to do with you and your disgusting antics.
[/quote]



It shall be interesting to see how the pack responds to your incitement.

Edited August 2, 2006 by stephen

[Guest rightwingofchrist]

i think its good isreals finally fighting back

[Guest rightwingofchrist]

Stephen from what ive that youve said you sound like a national socialist

[stephen]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1035641' date='Aug 1 2006, 04:05 PM']
You said yourself Hezbollah's "HomeLand" is Lebanon, so by your own word since Hezbollah has attacked Israel then Lenbanon has as well... that is, using your own words.
[/quote]

This is sophistry.

Hezbollah is not Lebanon, period.

Perhaps if your reasoning is reversed you will understand.

Baruch Goldstein, a charter member of the "Jewish" terrorist group, the "Jewish Defense League" entered the Ibrahimi Mosque at Hebron's Machpela Cave, on Purim 1994 carrying an automatic rifle. He opened fire on the defenseless Muslim Palestinian men and boys praying therein slaughtering 40 of them.

Now, does the criminal act of aggression of this "Jewish" terrorist thug open the entire US--where the Jewish Defense League is based--to vengeance from the Palestinians? Somehow I imagine you would say not. How about maybe just the state of California, or the city of Los Angeles?

BTW, Baruch Goldstein is regarded to be a saint among many pious Orthodox "Jews" in the Israeli state for his "saintly" massacre of innocent Palestinian civilians.

Edited August 2, 2006 by stephen