The "Israel" you don't see on TV

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='stephen' post='1035311' date='Aug 1 2006, 03:02 AM']
Hypocrites.
I'd like to see some evidence in support of this claim.
[/quote]

[url="http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,19960056-5006301,00.html"]here is some evidence[/url]

you're so cute when you say the word "hypocrites"

[stephen]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1035313' date='Aug 1 2006, 03:51 AM']
Dear Stephen,

Are Israeli attacks on Hezbollah just?

Let's turn to the Catechism of the Catholic Church for specific rules. The Catechism provides four criteria for determing whether a war is just or is not just. [/quote]

Dear "Knight,"

Let me help you out here. If you would like to apply just war doctrine to the present Israeli aggression against Lebanon, you first must state what harm the nation of Lebanon has caused to "Israel" which meets this condition:

[quote]1. The damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;[/quote]

For certain, the nation of Lebanon did not attack the Israeli state in any way at all.

I'd further point out that the Vatican's condemnation of the Israeli aggression against Lebanon is a sure sign that the just war doctrine does not apply here in any way shape or form.

Keep trying.

Edited August 1, 2006 by stephen

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='stephen' post='1035312' date='Aug 1 2006, 03:12 AM']
How do you figure that? The Israelis have been at war against the nation of Lebanon since before there even was a Hezbollah.

How sad indeed.
[/quote]

at war with the nation of Lebanon? no.
at war with Hezbollah, and the PLO, and Fatah and every other gang of Islamic radical thugs that will provoke Israel by launching attacks at populated areas of Israel, or attempt an assassination and then play the victim later? definitely

And the current conflict was started by kidnapping, murder, and many many rocket attacks.

But predictably they blame Israel…
A lot like you are, Stephen

Edited August 1, 2006 by Lounge Daddy

[stephen]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1035313' date='Aug 1 2006, 03:51 AM']

Hezbollah is yet another in a long line of hate filled Anti-Semitists Terrorist bent on destroying Israel just because her people are Jewish.[/quote]

If you want to see what racism really looks like, watch the video in the first post of this thread.

And I think Hezbollah is motivated by the harsh injustices that the Israeli state commits against it's neighbors.

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1035313' date='Aug 1 2006, 03:51 AM']Humm... Because Hezbollah is using their own people as sheilds.[/quote]

If we reverse this argument then Hezbollah would be justified for attacking any Israeli town which has Israeli troops or military assets in it, which is just about every Israeli town.

[Lounge Daddy]

1 - Why do you ignore what has started the current conflict… and every conflict with Israel?
2 – Why do you type Israel as “Israel” ?

[stephen]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1035315' date='Aug 1 2006, 04:25 AM']
at war with the nation of Lebanon? no.
at war with Hezbollah, and the PLO, and Fatah and every other gang of Islamic radical thugs that will provoke Israel by launching attacks at populated areas of Israel, or attempt an assassination and then play the victim later? definitely[/quote]

Well you're denying the facts. The infrastructure of Lebanon is being destroyed for the third time in less than thirty years. During the last 18 year occupation 20,000 civilians were killed. In this most recent aggression over 600 civilians have been killed in 2 and 1/2 weeks. It's is a war on Lebanon plain and simple.

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1035315' date='Aug 1 2006, 04:25 AM']
And the current conflict was started by kidnapping, murder, and many many rocket attacks. [/quote]

No. The rockets didn't start until after the Israelis began their bombing campaign, allegedly in response to the captured soldiers, but in fact it was an operation which was planned long in advance. In either case, the capture of two Israeli soldiers does not pose a grave threat to the Israeli state and therefore constitutes no justification for their bombardment of Hezbollah targets in Lebanon, much less the infrastructure and civilians of Lebanon.

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1035315' date='Aug 1 2006, 04:25 AM']But predictably they blame Israel…
A lot like you are, Stephen
[/quote]

Yes, I guess I'm one of those people who believe that the Israeli state is responsible for the damage caused by it's actions.


[quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1035314' date='Aug 1 2006, 03:55 AM']
[url="http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,19960056-5006301,00.html"]here is some evidence[/url][/quote]

Evidence of what? "Knight's" claim was that [i]"Hezbullah, if not firing from the apartment building (in Qana) was firing near it, innocent civilians died because of Hezbullah using them as shields."[/i]

You provided a few pictures of some men of Middle Eastern appearance with guns in vehicles near buildings with a caption that vaguely states that they were somewhere in southern Lebanon.

That proves nothing in relation to the Qana massacre.

Edited August 1, 2006 by stephen

[stephen]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1035320' date='Aug 1 2006, 04:41 AM']
1 - Why do you ignore what has started the current conflict… and every conflict with Israel?[/quote]

Well, I haven't mentioned the Israelis' ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians from their land, the illegal military occupation of Palestinian territories, the apartheid wall, the "Jewish"-only roads, racial preferential laws and policies, or the countless other Israeli injustices. But it's not that I'm ignoring these things. I'm just staying focused on the current Israeli perpetrated atrocities in Lebanon.

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1035320' date='Aug 1 2006, 04:41 AM']2 – Why do you type Israel as “Israel” ?
[/quote]

Because the Church is true Israel. The gangster state in the Middle East that calls itself "Israel" is a fake.

[Lounge Daddy]

so you are saying Israel has no right to exist?

[Lounge Daddy]

What is your favorite charity to give to, Stephen?
Hezbollah? PLO? Hamas? Maybe al'qaeda?

Do you also feel that after Israel, the “little satan” is eliminated that the USA, the “great satan” should also be wiped out?
Tell me, are you a simple Jihadistan sympathizer or a full fledged member?

[stephen]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1035328' date='Aug 1 2006, 05:25 AM']
so you are saying Israel has no right to exist?
[/quote]

That's exactly what I'm saying. It may shock you and others to witness this heresy against the sacred dogmas of Zionism promulgated by the ministers of the holy Zionist religion through the sacrament of holy television, but I'm just following the lead of the only pope to be canonized a saint since 1672, Pope St. Pius X, who refused to acknowledge the Zionists plan to create a Jewish state in Palestine. Here is Pope St. Pius X's response to Zionist, Theodore Herzl who lobbied the great pope saint for his support:

[quote] [size=2]"We are unfavorable to the movement. We cannot prevent Jews from going to Jerusalem, [b]but we can never sanction it.[/b] The ground of Jerusalem, if it were not always sacred, has been sanctified by the life of Jesus Christ. As the head of the church I cannot answer you otherwise. The Jews have not recognized our Lord, therefore we cannot recognize the Jewish people. Should the Jews manage to set foot on the once promised old-new land, the missionaries of the Church stand prepared to baptize them." (Pope St. Pius X)[/size] [/quote]

Edited August 1, 2006 by stephen

[stephen]

From Forbes:


[quote][size=3][b]Israeli raids kill 828, injure 3,200 in Lebanon in three weeks - official[/b][/size]


08.01.2006, 11:54 AM


BEIRUT (AFX) - Israeli attacks on Lebanon have left 828 people killed and 3,200 wounded over the last three weeks, the state High Relief Committee said.

'At the 21st day of the Israeli offensive on Lebanon, the health ministry has counted 828 dead, more than 3,200 wounded,' an HRC spokesman who did not wish to be identified said.

'These are identified bodies, and the toll does not count the people still believed to be under the rubble,' he said.[/quote]

[stephen]

[quote][size=3][b]'No Hezbollah Rockets Fired from Qana'[/b][/size]

Dahr Jamail

QANA, Aug 1 (IPS) - Red Cross workers and residents of Qana, where Israeli bombing killed at least 60 civilians, have told IPS that no Hezbollah rockets were launched from the city before the Israeli air strike.

The Israeli military has said it bombed the building in which several people had taken shelter, more than half of them children, because the Army had faced rocket fire from Qana. The Israeli military has said that Hezbollah was therefore responsible for the deaths.

"There were no Hezbollah rockets fired from here," 32-year-old Ali Abdel told IPS. "Anyone in this village will tell you this, because it is the truth."

Abdel had taken shelter in a nearby house when the shelter was bombed at 1 am. When the bombings finally let up in the morning, he went back to the bombed shelter to search for relatives.

He found his 70-year-old father and 64-year-old mother both dead inside.

"They bombed it, and afterwards I heard the screams of women, children, and a few men -- they were crying for help. But then one minute after the first bomb, another bomb struck, and after this there was nothing but silence, and the sound of more bombs around the village."

Masen Hashen, a 30-year-old construction worker from Qana who lost several family members in the air strike on the shelter, said there were no Hezbollah rockets fired from his village. "Because if they had done that now, or in the past, all of us would have left. Because we know we would be bombed."

Qana had been a shelter because no rockets were being fired from there, survivors said. "When Hezbollah fires their rockets, everyone runs away because they know an Israeli bombardment will come soon," Abdel said. "That is why everyone stayed in the shelter and nearby homes, because we all thought we'd be all right since there were no Hezbollah fighters in Qana."

Lebanese Red Cross workers in the nearby coastal city of Tyre told IPS that there was no basis for Israeli claims that Hezbollah had launched rockets from Qana.

"We found no evidence of Hezbollah fighters in Qana," Kassem Shaulan, a 28-year-old medic and training manager for the Red Cross in Tyre told IPS at their headquarters. "When we rescue people or recover bodies from villages, we usually see rocket launchers or Hezbollah fighters if they are there, but in Qana I can say that the village was 100 percent clear of either of those."

Another Red Cross worker, 32-year-old Mohammad Zatar, told IPS that "we can tell when Hezbollah has been firing rockets from certain areas, because all of the people run away, on foot if they have to."

While IPS was interviewing people in Qana at the site of the shelter Monday, Israeli warplanes roared overhead. Vibrations from nearby bombing rattled many buildings. At least three villages in southern Lebanon were attacked in Israeli air strikes Monday.

Following the international outcry over the air strike, Israel declared a 48-hour cessation of air strikes in order to carry out a military probe into the Qana killings.

Despite the false Israeli statement that it was halting its air strikes, Israeli Justice Minister Haim Ramon told Army Radio that the stoppage "does not signify in any way the end to the war."

Israel has rejected mounting international pressure to end the 20-day-old war against Hezbollah. The United Nations has indefinitely postponed a meeting on a new peacekeeping force for southern Lebanon.

While defending the Israeli air strike on the civilians in Qana, Israel's ambassador to the United Nations Dan Gillerman told the UN Security Council that Qana was "a hub for Hezbollah", and said that Israel had urged villagers to leave.

Israeli Deputy Prime Minister Shimon Peres said in reply to questions in New York Monday that the bombing was "totally, totally its (Hezbollah's) fault." (END/2006)

[url="http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=34189"]http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=34189[/url][/quote]

[KnightofChrist]

Pope John Paul the Great will soon be a Saint, and He as Pope acknowledge and recognized the State of Israel.

While Wojtyla was a bishop, he took part in the historic Second VaticanCouncil convened by Pope John XXIII, which modernized aspects of church practice and doctrine. The Council also radically changed the Church’s relationship with the Jewish people when it issued the Nostra Aetate declaration in 1965, which cleared Jews of responsibility for the death of Jesus, renounced its traditional claim that Jews had been rejected by God, condemned anti-Semitism, and called for “mutual understanding and respect” between Catholics and Jews. As Pope, John Paul II would turn these words into actions.

After his election as pope in October 1978, John Paul often devoted his energy to improving relations between Jews and Catholics. He frequently met with Jewish leaders, repeatedly condemned anti-Semitism, commemorated the Holocaust, and established diplomatic relations with Israel.

One of his first acts toward reconciliation occurred during his visit to Poland in 1979 when he knelt and prayed at Auschwitz. Seven years later, on April 13, 1986, he made an even more dramatic trip, this one just across the Tiber River, to Rome’s Great Synagogue, becoming the first pope to visit a Jewish house of worship. There he warmly embraced Rome’s chief rabbi, Elio Toaff, and described Jews as the “elder brothers” of Christians.

[KnightofChrist]

Look at me I can post news articles!!!

[quote][size=4]Qana: The Media Finds a Meme![/size]
By Joe Mariani (08/01/2006)

The "Israel attacked and killed dozens of children" story has spread with a speed that defies rational explanation. It's as though most mainstream media "journalists" around the world were excited to learn that an Israeli attack on a Hezballah rocket launch point resulted in the deaths of 37 children. Those media vultures swung into action, painting the Israelis as evil aggressors deliberately targeting innocent men, women and children, making them sound... well, like Hezballah.

A three-story building in Qana, Lebanon was hit by an Israeli air strike in response to rocket attacks launched into Israel from the vicinity. The Associated Press depicted a man screaming, "Why are they killing us? What have we done?" as he pulled bodies from the wreckage. Reuters coverage, accompanied by graphic descriptions of the bodies, quoted another man asking, "Why have they attacked one- and two-year-old children and defenseless women?" It's difficult to remember the last time the media published such heart-rending accounts of personal grief in the aftermath of a Hezballah strike on an Israeli town. Then again, the media doesn't want to make that comparison, since people might notice that the Israelis aren't, in fact, launching random rocket attacks at innocent civilians on purpose.

[color="#FF0000"]The media seems to be doing little more than publishing Hezballah propaganda thinly disguised as "news." The blog EU Referendum, for example, has documented evidence of Hezballah stage-managing coverage of the tragedy at Qana. [u]The same man is seen "rescuing" the same victim[/u] in photograph after photograph, taken over a period of hours by several agencies, posing for the cameras with the body.[/color] CNN correspondent Nic Robertson took a guided tour conducted by a Hezballah "press officer" that was blatantly staged to "prove" that Israel was targeting civilians. Only photographic evidence that Hezballah attacks are launched from civilian areas, published in the Australian Herald Sun, weakened the mainstream media's indignation somewhat. Outrage over an Israeli airstrike that killed four UN "observers" was only slightly dampened when it was revealed that Hezballah was using the presence of UN troops as a shield from behind which they could launch attacks unmolested (or so they thought). UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan still used the Qana incident to demand an immediate cease-fire, which would prevent Israel from defending itself while leaving Hezballah free to regroup and rearm for more attacks.

Few of these "journalists" seem to have asked the questions, "[color="#FF0000"]what were women and children doing in that building when it collapsed, and why did it happen some seven hours after the airstrike took place?[/color]" The fact that Hezballah and other terrorists routinely use innocent civilians as human shields doesn't seem to change their foregone conclusion that the Israelis are really the bad guys. If it turns out that the building was used to hide Hezballah explosives which caused the building's collapse, Israel will still somehow be made to bear the blame.

There was no way for the Israelis to know that building contained women and children... if they were actually even there when the airstrike took place. There was no reason for any civilians to be in the town at all. Hezballah certainly knew that there were civilians present, but used the residential area as a launch zone anyway, knowing that Israel would respond. As usual, the majority of the "mainstream" media attaches no blame to terrorists whatsoever, even as the terrorists manipulate the media for their own ends.

The Israelis have been doing all that can be reasonably expected to limit civilian casualties in Lebanon as well as their own country. They regularly warn residents of southern Lebanon to leave towns targeted for airstrikes, via radio and dropped fliers, even though such warnings also tell Hezballah where the next blow will fall. No matter what they do, however, the Leftist media will continue to do all in their power to turn world opinion against them.

Israelis might as well forget about who "likes" them and do whatever it takes to remove [color="#FF0000"]Iran-controlled Hezballah[/color] from their northern border. After that, a multinational force -- NATO or an ad hoc coalition -- should help the Lebanese military keep the area secure from attacks. Now that the media has its meme, however, the clock is ticking on Israel's already faint international support.

Just as most members of the media have used the crimes committed at Abu Ghraib to tear down public support for the entire liberation of Iraq, they will try to use Qana to turn support against Israel. If the Israelis bow to "world opinion" now, however, they might as well save time and drown themselves en masse in the eastern Mediterranean.

[size=2]http://guardian.blogdrive.com/archive/cm-08_cy-2006_m-08_d-01_y-2006_o-0.html[/size]


[i]Joe Mariani was born and raised in New Jersey. He now lives in Pennsylvania, where the gun laws are less restrictive and taxes are lower. Joe always thought of himself as politically neutral until he saw how far left the left had really gone after 9/11. [/i][/quote]

Edited August 1, 2006 by KnightofChrist

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='stephen' post='1035316' date='Aug 1 2006, 02:25 AM']
For certain, the nation of Lebanon did not attack the Israeli state in any way at all.
[/quote]


You said yourself Hezbollah's "HomeLand" is Lebanon, so by your own word since Hezbollah has attacked Israel then Lenbanon has as well... that is, using your own words.