The "Israel" you don't see on TV

[bball33]

You know, you have several decent points. However, you lose credibility ...

according to who, you?

Let me finish the sentence, then take your little shots...


QUOTE(michaelismycn @ Aug 26 2006, 01:53 AM) *
... when you make the absurd claim that Hezbollah is a millitia set to protect Lebanon?


That's exactly why Hezbollah were formed--in response to the Israeli terror bombing of Beirut in 1982 in which 17,500 innocent people were killed, and the subsequent 20 year occupation. It's absurd to deny this.

Really?? I seem to recall that they are the ones going into Israel, oooh, and wait, their OWN country and blowing others up. INCLUDING innocent civilians who you don't want iradicated.

QUOTE(michaelismycn @ Aug 26 2006, 01:53 AM) *
Here's my thing: you get mad at all of us "zionists" for allowing Israel to blow up innocents ...


That's right. What Catholic wouldn't oppose killing innocent people?

Again, if you finish the sentence, it does make me look a little more smart than you take me for. Oh well, what should I expect?

QUOTE(michaelismycn @ Aug 26 2006, 01:53 AM) *
... yet Hezbollah (which, by the way, capture the soldiers and demanded the release of known TERRORISTS, not innocent palestinians)

The Israelis hold scores of Lebanese prisoners as well, without charge or trial, which begs the question, if these Lebanese prisoners are known terrorists as you claim, why aren't they charged with a crime and given a fair trial?

Hello, we have prisoners of war as well. We have guys who have been captured and in guantanamo since the start of the war. Every country does. Not saying it's right, but why call out one country when the rest of the world leads by example.

QUOTE(michaelismycn @ Aug 26 2006, 01:53 AM) *
... started the fighting in the first place. They captured the soldiers and fired the rockets, and put INNOCENT civilians in the way to make everyone else look like the bad guy.


This is false. Hezbollah fired rockets in response to the Israeli bombing of the infrastructure of Lebanon. But even if it were true, it would not justify a full scale invasion and bombing campaign which caused over 1 million refugees, 1300 civilian deaths, tens of thousands injured, billions of dollars in damage to infrastructure, a natural disaster due to an oil spill, etc., etc.

There is no proportion here whatsoever. Just plain barbarity

You know, I seem to recall quite a few images of suicide bombings, and I also recall that the rockets started firing before Israel entered Lebanon (while Israel massed their army). Also, if it's so bad, why don't the Lebanese tell Hezbollah to stop? Everyone knows that Israel is after Hezbollah and the prisoners only. The least they could do is go out somewhere where there's not as many civilians and wage war there. Oh wait, that would stop them from using their own builidings, people, and land as cover (but who suffers most?-innocents).

QUOTE(michaelismycn @ Aug 26 2006, 01:53 AM) *
My point about Israel's might was no so much to excuse them of anything, but to make people realize just how powerful Israel is on their own


I don't think anyone needs any reminder of that, certainly not the people of Lebanon or the Palestinian territories.

Then why the comment earlier? I recall you saying that if we stopped backing Israel, they would lose big time. My point is not to back down, so to speak, but to try and come to peace terms. Israel doesn't want land. They don't want money. They want their soldiers, and as bad as that seems, they're doing exactly what the U.S. would do if something happened like that.

QUOTE(michaelismycn @ Aug 26 2006, 01:53 AM) *
(and if I remember correctly, Israel was British land given to them to do with want they want, or is that our "zionist" textbooks speaking?).


It was Palestinian land occupied by the British who had no right to give it to anyone.

I could make quite a few arguments about the controlling of land, but it's not worth the fight with you, because even if I could prove you wrong, I have a feeling you wouldn't admit it, much less believe it.

QUOTE(michaelismycn @ Aug 26 2006, 01:53 AM) *
Hezbollah has sworn the destruction of all Jews, as well as all infidels (which i suppose might include you, but i don't know, i haven't been on this site for long), as well as Iran, Palestine, and other middle eastern nations.


Funny how they haven't destroyed the Christian members of their political party.

This nonsense can only be foisted upon the credulous.

Nonsense huh? They can't destroy the "christian" members (i have no idea where you got that from, but i say it's nonsense) because that would throw the entire country into civil war if they took out members of the government. Oh wait, I forgot. Hezbollah and Hamas are buddies, as well as with Iran. Hmmm.... they like Christians? Hahahaha forget it.

QUOTE(michaelismycn @ Aug 26 2006, 01:53 AM) *
Not because the Jews "stole" their land (good excuse though), but because they must eliminate all, convert all, or be martyred.


That's a bold faced lie. Hezbollah has Christian members and they have the support of most Lebanese Christians. Even more so since the latest Israeli aggression.

Like to see proof. Haven't heard or seen one Hezbollah "Christian" member yet.

QUOTE(michaelismycn @ Aug 26 2006, 01:53 AM) *
You know, I would imagine you should be championing the cause of our Native American brethren right now as well, who were unjustly treated by our "Christian" forefathers.


I would champion their cause, but it seems that they've nearly been eradicated. I'm attempting to prevent the same from happening to Arabs.

And two wrongs don't make a right, not that you'd try such a thing.

Ouch. Funny. Our Native American brothers seem to be alive and well over here. I suggest you check your info before you make that point. Oh, and just because they might be all gone doesn't make it right, does it, Stephen?

QUOTE(michaelismycn @ Aug 26 2006, 01:53 AM) *
All I can say is just wait until Hezbollah or Iran or whoever pushes Israel over the edge. Israel will take everything out before we know it, and then we will have bloody world war three on our hands (it's not here just yet, but it's close).


I'm not cowering in fear of the "mad dog" Israelis. They're dangerous whether they're challenged or whether they're left alone. It makes no difference. Their injustices are the cause of the never ending conflict in the Middle East. The Israeli injustices must stop.

Hahaha I'm sure you're not cowering (wouldn't expect you to), but you missed my point. They cannot go all out war without a reason. Or fire a nuke. My point was to show people that we should not give them the reason to push the little red button.

[stephen]

Once again, proof that the "morality" which people espouse here is not Christian or American but rabbinic. The rabbis complain that the Israeli military's 10:1 civilian to militant kill ratio is [i]too "Christian"[/i] and they urge the Israeli military to kill civilians even more indiscriminately, in keeping with the Talmudic law.

[quote][size=4][b]US rabbis urge change in IDF war code[/b][/size]

By MATTHEW WAGNER


The Rabbinical Council of America (RCA) has called on Israel to reevaluate its military rules of war in light of Hizbullah's "unconscionable use of civilians, hospitals, ambulances, mosques and the like as human shields, cannon fodder and weapons of asymmetric warfare."

The RCA made the statement at the end of a three-day solidarity mission last week in conjunction with Emunah, the modern Orthodox women's organization, during which a contingent of RCA rabbis toured the North and South, visiting the injured and gathering impressions of the extent of the damage caused by the warfare.
Rabbi Basil Herring, executive vice president of the RCA, said the statement was not a halachic decision but rather "our understanding of [b]traditional Jewish values[/b]."



"...Our corrupt military morality, which tells us that our soldiers must endanger their lives to protect enemy civilians, is the reason we lost the war," said Eliyahu.

[b]"Anti-Semites demand that we use Christian morality [/b] while our enemies act like barbarians," said Drori, accusing the IDF of adopting "Christian morality" as its own.

... [b]we are obligated to act according to Jewish morality, which dictates that 'he who gets up to kill you, get up yourself and kill him first.'" [/b]

[b]"There are no innocent parties in a time of war," he continued. "Rather, one must battle a bellicose city until it is captured. All types of Christian morality weaken the spirit of our army and our nation and cost us the lives of our soldiers and citizens."[/b]

Full article:

[url="http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1154525912677&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull"]http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid...icle%2FShowFull[/url][/quote]

Is it now clear that the "hiding behind civilians" objection is a false argument applied after the fact? These people don't even distinguish between civilians and military. It's all a show for the "dumb goys" (as they would call most of you) who believe that civilians should be spared during wartime.

And I hope that Americans who are appalled by the new, barbaric methods of "preemptive" warfare practiced by the US will see where those methods are founded. They're certainly not founded in Christian morality or in US constitutional principles.

Edited August 26, 2006 by stephen

[Aloysius]

at least the IDF isn't listening to them completely. the only reason for this, however, is that this "Christian morality" is also a little thing known as "international law". International law is deeply rooted in Christian morality and the IDF has to be careful not to follow the talmud and actually attempt to follow this Christian morality found in international law.

we shouldn't be so quick to see the false islamic morality in one side and not notice that there might be religious modivation from talmudic judaism which is also false morality on the other. both sides are motivated by religions which are not the true religion-- talmudic judaism and islam/islamofascism.

both sides lack Christian morality and as such both sides see civilians to some extent as acceptable targets. this is not right, it's against international law and Catholic teaching.

Hezbollah hiding behind civilians is an immoral tactic. Israel's talmudic targeting of civilians is an immoral tactic. Hezbollah's islamic targeting of civilians is an immoral tactic.

[bball33]

Stephen, why don't you post the full article? Is it because it might take up too much space, or is it because of what it says overall? We cannot condemn someone for their actions when the full situation is not known. It makes complete sense for the Israelis to re-evaluate their strategy when they are losing lives due to the complete lack of morality by the enemy. This is something all nations consider when facing that situation. Sadly, they are not bound to Christian morality, and as such, they do not hold the same views of morality that we do, and should. What can we expect, when niether side seems to want to hold human life in high regard? Hey, you said there are Christians in Hezbollah, yet, why are they using innocent civilians as human shields and such? Both sides are at fault, not just the Jews.

[stephen]

[quote name='michaelismycn' post='1051125' date='Aug 26 2006, 07:09 PM']
Stephen, why don't you post the full article? Is it because it might take up too much space, or is it because of what it says overall? [/quote]

I've posted the pertinent information and provided a link to those who want to read the quotes in context. It's not my intent to spread rabbinic propaganda on a Catholic forum. My intent is to contrast the darkness of rabbinic "morality" with Christian morality.

[quote name='michaelismycn' post='1051125' date='Aug 26 2006, 07:09 PM'] We cannot condemn someone for their actions when the full situation is not known. [/quote]

If you're claiming that I misrepresented the rabbis position, I think that's false. Anyone can follow the link and see that I didn't misrepresent their quotes. I just cut out some of their propaganda.

[quote name='michaelismycn' post='1051125' date='Aug 26 2006, 07:09 PM'] It makes complete sense for the Israelis to re-evaluate their strategy when they are losing lives due to the complete lack of morality by the enemy. [/quote]

The rabbis are citing centuries old texts. They aren't reevaluating anything. And as I've already shown, the Israeli military already kills 10 civilians for every militant so "reevaluating" that strategy is a strange way of framing it. The rabbis apparently want the Israeli military to kill even more civilians.

Why on earth would any Catholic be supporting or rationalizing this madness?

[quote name='michaelismycn' post='1051125' date='Aug 26 2006, 07:09 PM'] This is something all nations consider when facing that situation. Sadly, they are not bound to Christian morality, and as such, they do not hold the same views of morality that we do, and should. [/quote]

That is a lie. The West, which is currently the aggressor in this preemptive war, is founded in Christian morality. It is acting contrary to it's own founding principles. And that is due to the preponderance of Zionists making the decisions in the US and the UK today. These people need to be replaced with people who will uphold the founding principles of the nations they represent.


[quote name='michaelismycn' post='1051125' date='Aug 26 2006, 07:09 PM'] What can we expect, when niether side seems to want to hold human life in high regard? [/quote]

As I've said, if the Israeli injustices stopped and Arabs were not driven to the pits of depair which they are, they would behave as they did prior to the Zionists' arrival to their lands, which is quite peacefully.



[quote name='michaelismycn' post='1051125' date='Aug 26 2006, 07:09 PM'] Hey, you said there are Christians in Hezbollah, yet, why are they using innocent civilians as human shields and such? [/quote]

I've heard this claim made ad nauseam. I've seen no proof that supports it.


[quote name='michaelismycn' post='1051125' date='Aug 26 2006, 07:09 PM'] Both sides are at fault, not just the Jews.
[/quote]

The "Jews" bear the bulk of the responsibility, having put the cycle of aggression into motion and having the most power to remedy the situation.

Edited August 27, 2006 by stephen

[stephen]

Anyone reporting the news of Israeli atrocities in the occupied Palestinian territories does so at great risk. The Israelis attempt to impose a total media blackout in the occupied territories. The last thing they want is the people of the world "corrupted" by Christian morality to judge their brutality for what it is.


[quote][size=3][b]Israeli rocket hits Reuters car [/b] [/size]

BBC News

Last Updated: Sunday, 27 August 2006, 02:24 GMT 03:24 UK

[i]An Israeli air strike on a car in Gaza City during a security operation has injured a Reuters news agency cameraman and a local journalist. At least one rocket hit the car as the cameraman was filming, knocking him unconscious, while the second man received serious leg wounds. [/i]

The Reuters car was clearly marked all over as a media vehicle.

The Israeli army said the car had not been identified as press and expressed regret that journalists had been hurt.

The agency named its cameraman as Fadel Shana and the other man wounded as local website journalist Sabbah Hmaida.

Two Palestinian bystanders were also injured in the attack...

[b]'English, Arabic and Hebrew'[/b]

Israeli ground forces backed by helicopters were conducting an operation inside the Gaza Strip on Saturday evening, near the Karni crossing.

"During the operation, there was an aerial attack on a suspicious vehicle that drove in a suspicious manner right by the forces and in between the Palestinian militant posts," Israeli army spokeswoman Capt Noa Meir said.

"This car was not identified by the army as a press vehicle. If journalists were hurt, we regret it."

The Reuters armoured car was clearly labelled as a media vehicle, with signs on all sides, including the roof.

According to the Associated Press, the white sports utility vehicle was emblazoned with the Reuters logo and had "TV" and "Press" written on it in English, Arabic and Hebrew.

[img]http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42019000/jpg/_42019360_car_afp_203b.jpg[/img]

The front seats of the car were covered in blood, much of the inside of the vehicle was torn by shrapnel and one of the bullet-proof windows was completely destroyed, the agency says.

Mohammed Dawdi, head of the local journalists' union, described the attack as a "cold-blooded crime".

The Israelis have been conducting operations against militants in the Gaza Strip for two months.

The campaign was sparked by the capture of an Israeli soldier on 25 June.

[url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5289984.stm?ls"]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5289984.stm?ls[/url] [/quote]

[stephen]

As long as "Israel" is howling about disarming other Middle East nations, you may as well educate yourself about "Israel's" nuclear weapons and other weapons of mass destruction which it develops illegally and under no UN supervision as it hypocritically demands of other nations.

[url="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2395002075547394719&q=israel&hl=en"]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2...srael&hl=en[/url]

[stephen]

[size=3][b]The Lobby and the Israeli Invasion of Lebanon:
Their Facts and Ours[/b][/size]

by James Petras

August 29, 2006

All the national, state and local Jewish organizations have launched a $300 million fundraising and propaganda campaign in support of the 21 Jewish civilians and 116 soldiers killed during the Israeli invasion of Lebanon (but not the 18 Israeli Arabs who were excluded from Jews-only bomb shelters). As adjuncts of the Israeli foreign office not a single one of the 52 organizations which make up The Presidents of the Major Jewish Organizations in the US voiced a single public criticism of Israel’s massive destruction of civilian homes, hospitals, offices, supermarkets, refugee convoys and churches and mosques, and the deliberate killing of civilians, UN peacekeepers and rescue workers with precision bombing. On the contrary the entire Jewish lobby echoed in precise detail the Israeli lies that the Lebanese deaths were caused by the Lebanese resistance’s “use of human shields,” despite the total devastation of the heavily populated southern suburbs of Beirut, completely out of range of any Hezbollah rockets.



The magnitude of the Jewish Lobby’s cover-up of Israel’s massive military assault can be measured in great detail.

The Israeli Armed Forces (IDF) launched 5,000 missiles, five-ton bunker-buster bombs and cluster bombs as well as anti-personnel phosphorus bombs each day into Lebanon for 27 days -- totaling over 135,000 missiles, bombs and artillery shells. During the last seven days of the war Israel launched 6,000 bombs and shells per day -- over 42,000, for a grand total of 177,000 over a heavily populated territory the size of the smallest state in the US. In contrast, the Lebanese national resistance launched 4,000 rockets during the entire 34-day period, an average of 118 per day. The ratio was 44 to 1 -- without mentioning the size differentials, the long-term killing effects of the thousands of un-exploded cluster bombs (nearly 50 killed or maimed since the end of hostilities) and Israel’s scorched earth military incursion.

The Jewish lobbyists publish the number of Israel’s civilian dead as 41, forgetting to mention that only 23 were Jews, the remaining 18 were members of Israel’s Arab Muslim and Christian minority who constitute around 20% of the population. The disproportionate number of Israeli Arabs killed was a result of the Israeli government policy of providing shelters and siren warning systems to Jews and ignoring the security needs of its Arab citizens. The proportion of civilian deaths to soldiers was 41 to 116 or 26% of the total Israeli dead (but if we only consider Jewish Israelis and IDF members the proportion 23 to 116 or 16% of the Jewish dead were civilian.) Clearly the Lebanese resistance was aiming most of its fire at the invading IDF. In contrast, in Lebanon, of the 1,181 so far known to have been killed, 1088 were civilians and only 93 were fighters. In other words 92% of the Lebanese dead were civilians -- over three times the rate of civilians killed by the Lebanese resistance and almost six times the rate of Jewish civilians killed (the only ones who count in the Lobby’s propaganda machine). To put it more bluntly: over 47 Lebanese civilians were slaughtered for each Jewish Israeli civilian death.

The Jewish Lobby’s claims of Israeli moral and military superiority in the Middle East -- which is paradoxically combined with warnings that Israel’s survival is at stake -- has been shredded to tatters as a result of their failure to annihilate Hezbollah.

The Lobby’s echoing Israeli military claims of the invincibility of the Israeli armed forces is largely based on their ‘fighting’ against rock throwing Palestinian school kids. Today it is clear that they are quite vulnerable when faced with well-armed, veteran Lebanese guerrilla fighters. According to a United Nation Report, from June 26 to August 26, 2006, Israel killed 202 Palestinians, 44 of whom were small children, while losing one soldier; while in Lebanon, Israel lost 116 soldiers to 93 Lebanese fighters in 34 days (almost half the time period). In other words, 157 times more Israeli’s were killed as a result of the Lebanese invasion in one month than died in Palestine in two months (United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, August 26, 2006). The Jewish Lobby’s propaganda campaign in the US Congress, throughout the mass media and even in our small communities in defense of Israel’s “Summer Rain” (raining bombs on civilians) against the Palestinians has been thoroughly exposed as a murderous scorched earth policy by the United Nations report and summarized in the Israeli daily Haaretz (August 27, 2006): “The [campaign] . . . is still taking a severe toll on 1.4 million Palestinians . . . thousands of Palestinians have been forced to flee their homes following continuing IDF incursions into the Strip (Gaza) and heavy shelling . . . the Israeli Air Force has conducted 247 aerial assaults in Gaza…more than a million people have been left with no regular supply of water and electricity.” The Lobby, like skilled totalitarians, reverses the roles calling the Palestinian victims (all 202 of them) terrorists and the executioners (the Israeli Defense Force) victims (one dead soldier who was most likely killed by ‘friendly fire’).

George Orwell would have written a scathing essay on the Lobby’s version of Israel’s Animal Farm where one Israeli death is worth more than 202 Palestinians.

In surveying the Daily Alert, the propaganda sheet prepared by the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs (a semi-official propaganda arm of the Israeli regime) for the Conference of Presidents of Major America Jewish Organizations (CPMAJO), there is not a single mention of the fact that the Jewish state was killing almost 10 Lebanese civilians for each fighter, while the Hezbollah resistance was killing four times as many Israeli soldiers as Israeli civilians (Jews and Gentiles). Not a single opinion article, editorial or commentary reproduced by the Daily Alert, from the Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, The National Telegraph, the New York Sun, USA Today, Boston Globe, New York Times, Haaretz, The Jerusalem Post or The Times (UK) mentions the fact that Israel’s much ballyhooed “precision” bombing succeeded in targeting civilians, while the Lebanese defenders’ far less sophisticated weaponry mainly hit IDF invaders.

These omissions by the Jewish Lobby and its members and supporters in the Anglo-American-Israeli respectable and yellow press and electronic media were absolutely necessary to perpetuate the myth the Israel was waging a “defensive”, “existential” (sic) war for “survival” against Islamic “terrorists” embodied in Hezbollah and the Lebanese National Resistance.

Was Israel’s destruction of 15,000 homes up to Beirut and beyond to Northern Lebanon defensive actions as the CPMAJO claims? Do these very smart, very wealthy, highly educated Princeton, Yale, Harvard, Hopkins and Chicago-educated apologists for the Israeli invasion really believe that bombing hospitals, supermarkets, water treatments plants, churches and mosques in Southern Lebanon, oil refineries and milk, food and pharmaceutical factories in Beirut, transport, highways and bridges in Northern Lebanon were “existential” acts essential for the survival of the “Jewish State”? Can’t they understand the simple math presented above? The math of genocide? Do the investment bankers, professors, dentists and armies of rabbis of all Talmudic readings believe that Israel is the innocent victim of aggression -- justifying the slaughter of over 90% Lebanese civilians among those it killed? Such well-educated professionals must know that from January 1996 to August 2006, there were weekly incidents all along the Israeli-Lebanese border, involving Israeli raids, killings and kidnapping of Lebanese civilians, as well as rocket firing in both directions. Didn’t the Hollywood moguls who gave so generously to the Israeli war machine know that Elliott Abrams, President Bush’s chief adviser on the Middle East (stern defender of Jewish purity and intimate collaborator with the Israeli high command) gave full support in early summer to an Israeli plan to destroy Hezbollah, at least one month before the border incident (see Seymour Hersh, “Watching Lebanon,” The New Yorker, August 21, 2006)?

Of course the educated elites know all about the Israeli lust for power and dominance --unlike the good Germans in the 1940s, who claimed they didn’t see the smoking chimneys or the grim trains -- as today images of devastated apartments and slaughtered children were visible, easily accessible and followed by well-publicized reports by all the human rights groups on Israel’s crimes against humanity. They knew and supported Israel’s crimes before and after the ceasefire -- and they proudly chose to endorse the war, the policies and the state as true accomplices after the fact.

Yet the Jewish Lobby tells us that Hezbollah’s kidnapping of two soldiers across the Israeli border was the detonator for a full-scale invasion. Numerous sources around the world even dispute the Israeli account of a Hezbollah cross-border attack. According to the big business US magazine Forbes (July 12, 2006), the French news service AFP (July 12, 2006), the respectable Asia Times (July 15, 2006) and the Lebanese police, the Israeli soldiers were captured within Lebanon in the area of Ai’tu Al-Chaarb, a Lebanese village a few kilometers from the Israeli border.

While the Jewish lobby raises funds exclusively for Israeli-Jewish soldiers and civilians, Hezbollah is engaged in a non-sectarian reconstruction program that embraces all Lebanese communities and households, regardless of religious or ethnic preferences. The reason is found in the fact that the Lebanese resistance was a national movement. Contrary to the Lobby’s propaganda, the Lebanese resistance was not exclusively Shia or even Muslim in make-up. Israel’s invasion managed to united Lebanon’s factions in defense of their homeland. Of the 93 Lebanese fighters killed, 20% were from organizations other than Hezbollah, a point ignored by the Lobby’s ideologues, who pursue Israel’s policy of pushing the US to attack Iran, Syria and other Middle East states known to be hostile to Israel’s hegemonic ambitions.

Consequences of Israeli War
In both Israel and throughout the pro-Israel Jewish networks, the Israeli military’s failure to achieve its goal of defeating and eliminating the Lebanese resistance, particularly Hezbollah, has had a major impact. In Israel, the major criticism of the Olmert-Perez regime and General Halutz from both soldiers and civilians is that the government was too weak -- there was insufficient bombing, lack of sufficient ground troops and too much concern for Lebanese civilians. The cease-fire, they complained, was premature; the territory occupied was too limited. Likud and other parties in the Knesset called for the bombing of Syria and Iran.

While many US and Israeli progressives cited the “turmoil”, “dissent” and harsh polemics in the aftermath of the war as typical of the “rough and tumble” of Israel’s democracy, they ignored the savage militarist substance and ultra-rightwing direction of Israeli public opinion. The “who lost the war” polemics in Israel is basically anchored in preparations for a new, more violent attack on Lebanon and other adversaries of Israel.

This militaristic rage is manifested in the brutal daily assaults on the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank where Israeli warplanes bomb homes and ground forces assassinate and injure dozens of civilians – “existential” murders against stone-throwing schoolboys. Israel’s rage has affected Jewish religious notables. The Rabbinical Council of America called for the Israeli military to re-evaluate its military rules of war in light of Hezbollah’s “unconscionable use of civilians, hospitals, ambulances, mosques and the like as human shields,” according to the Jerusalem Post (August 21, 2006). The RCA and the modern Orthodox women’s organization, Eminah, represent over one million US Jews. Their call to maximize civilian deaths in order to lessen the “risk” to “our” (Israeli Jewish) soldiers is in the finest spirit of Nazi chaplains egging on the Wehrmacht’s scorched earth policy during World War II. Their Israeli counterparts, Rabbis Eliyahu and Drori, echoed the RCA’s “delicate criticisms” in more colorful and uninhibited terms: “Our corrupt military, which tells us that our soldiers must endanger their lives to protect enemy civilians, is the reason we lost the war,” according to the gentle Rabbi Eliyahu, who sees all non-Jewish civilians opposing Israeli policy as enemies worthy of incineration. Not to be outdone, the good Rabbi Drori accused the rest of Western humanity of being “anti-Semites” for being horrified at Israel’s savage destruction. “Anti-Semites demand that we use Christian morality while our enemies act like barbarians.” (Jerusalem Post, August 21, 2006) Apparently the killing and maiming of over a thousand Lebanese civilians, mostly women and children, does not satisfy this raging bull Rabbi.

Lest one think that these US and Israeli Rabbis are simply loose cannons or isolated psychopaths, three weeks earlier one Rabbi Dov Lior, in the name of the Yesh Council of Rabbis (with hundreds of thousands of Israeli followers), announced that “when our enemies hold a baby in one hand and shoot us with the other, or when missiles are purposely aimed at civilian populations in the Land of Israel in blatant disregard for moral criteria, we are obligated to act according to Jewish morality, which dictates that ‘he who gets up to kill you, get up yourself and kill him first.’” (Jerusalem Post, August 25, 2006) The holy men of the Holy Land are providing a post-factum religious blessing for the more than three hundred Lebanese children killed and urging the future killing of even more children. All this, we are told, is according to “Jewish morality.” Surely many US Jews, especially liberals and even conservatives, object to rabbinical fiats for the slaughter of children, but we are deafened by their polite silence. The Lobby conveniently ignores the Jewish morality spiel, even as it defends the “moderate” secular line of Israeli civilian deaths resulting from Hezbollah using Lebanese babies and old grannies as shields to commit their crimes. So we have a raging debate among US and Israeli rabbis, and secular and religious apologists over whether killing Lebanese civilians and children is based on tactical military or religious-ethical considerations.

The Executive Director of the American Jewish Committee, David A. Harris, puts to the lie the nasty bit of propaganda by US “Left” Zionists who downplay the role of the Jewish Lobby in securing whole-hearted US White House and Congressional support for Israel’s destruction of Lebanon. In discussing US subservience to Israel, Harris stated, “No other nation has been prepared to define such an intimate relationship with Israel in all bilateral spheres -- from arms sales, foreign aid and intelligence-sharing to a free-trade zone, scientific co-operation and diplomatic support. No other nation has the capacity, by dint of its size and stature, to help ensure Israel’s quest for a secure and lasting peace ]sic] . . . In the recent conflict with Hezbollah, once again the United States demonstrated its willingness to stand by Israel, provide vital support and withstand the pressure of many US allies who would have wished for an earlier end to the fighting even if it meant keeping Hezbollah largely intact and in place . . . Whatever the primary factor, there can be no doubt that American Jewry is an essential element of the equation (yoking the US to Israel). This is all the more reason why American Jewry need to work day in and day out to ensure that the mutually beneficial link [sic] goes from strength to strength.” (Jerusalem Post, August 25, 2006)

In plain English, the Jewish networks and lobbies were able to secure 98 percent support from Congress for a resolution supporting Israel’s invasion of Lebanon, even as 54 percent of Democrats and 39 percent of Republicans favor a policy of neutrality as opposed to alignment with Israel. (Times-Bloomberg Poll, July 25-August 1, 2006, published in the Jewish Telegraph Agency -- August 15, 2006) The Lobby convinced, pressured and threatened the White House to prolong the Israeli terror bombing as Harris so proudly announced. The Jewish Lobby does work “day in and day out” to make sure that Israel can ethnically cleanse Palestine, drop five-ton bombs on Lebanese apartment buildings, bulldoze villages and isolate the US from even its closest allies at the expense of the US taxpayers, our democratic ideals and our sovereignty. And the American Jewish Committee has the chutzpah (arrogance) to say that it is “our mutually beneficial link.” Now that is a bit of political dishonesty!

James Petras, a former Professor of Sociology at Binghamton University, New York, owns a 50-year membership in the class struggle, is an adviser to the landless and jobless in Brazil and Argentina, and is co-author of Globalization Unmasked (Zed Books). His latest book is, The Power of Israel in the United States (Clarity Press, 2006). He can be reached at: jpetras@binghamton.edu.

[url="http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Aug06/Petras29.htm"]http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Aug06/Petras29.htm[/url]

[musturde]

[quote name='michaelismycn' post='1050838' date='Aug 26 2006, 12:53 AM']
You know, you have several decent points. However, you lose credibility when you make the absurd claim that Hezbollah is a millitia set to protect Lebanon? Here's my thing: you get mad at all of us "zionists" for allowing Israel to blow up innocents, yet Hezbollah (which, by the way, capture the soldiers and demanded the release of known TERRORISTS, not innocent palestinians) started the fighting in the first place. They captured the soldiers and fired the rockets, and put INNOCENT civilians in the way to make everyone else look like the bad guy. My point about Israel's might was no so much to excuse them of anything, but to make people realize just how powerful Israel is on their own[/quote]
Actually Israel didn't do well in this war. They usually follow through a lot better.

[quote] (and if I remember correctly, Israel was British land given to them to do with want they want, or is that our "zionist" textbooks speaking?). [/quote]
This issue is another debate... it should have a thread dedicated just to it if it's to be discussed.

[quote] Hezbollah has sworn the destruction of all Jews, as well as all infidels (which i suppose might include you, but i don't know, i haven't been on this site for long), as well as Iran, Palestine, and other middle eastern nations.[/quote]
Umm... when have they pledged destruction of all infidels. I might have missed this?

[quote] Not because the Jews "stole" their land (good excuse though), but because they must eliminate all, convert all, or be martyred. You know, I would imagine you should be championing the cause of our Native American brethren right now as well, who were unjustly treated by our "Christian" forefathers. All I can say is just wait until Hezbollah or Iran or whoever pushes Israel over the edge. Israel will take everything out before we know it, and then we will have bloody world war three on our hands (it's not here just yet, but it's close).
[/quote]

I don't know what Israel would do. By it's stupidity, the UN has become more and more angry with Israel... especially after Israel bombed a UN post in Lebanon. (which Kofi said was deliberate... I don't know what evidence he has to back this claim).


Btw
Stephen, could you send me some kind of proof that there are Christians in Hezbollah? Did you say that or am I misinterpretting? Hezbollah's main goal is to make Lebanon all Muslim. There are Christians that support Hezbollah for political reasons but I don't believe there are any that are members of Hezbollah.

Edited August 30, 2006 by musturde

[stephen]

[quote name='musturde' post='1053845' date='Aug 30 2006, 08:34 PM']

Stephen, could you send me some kind of proof that there are Christians in Hezbollah? Did you say that or am I misinterpretting?[/quote]

I didn't say that Hezbollah has Christians in it's militant wing, although they may well have Christian allies fighting with them. The article that I posted above states that 20% of the militants killed in the recent Israeli aggression were not Hezbollah members.

What I was referring to was the Christian political allies of Hezbollah, particularly, Michel Aoun. They haven't attempted to convert or kill him, have they?


[quote name='musturde' post='1053845' date='Aug 30 2006, 08:34 PM'] Hezbollah's main goal is to make Lebanon all Muslim. [/quote]

I see this claim quite often. But Hezbollah's alliances with Christians and the support Hezbollah recieves from 80% of Lebanon's Christians including the Maronite President of Lebanon, Emile Lahoud (who states that Hezbollah is [i]not[/i] a terrorist organization, but a legitimate resistance group which liberated Lebanon from the Israeli occupation) would indicate otherwise.

Let's put it this way, the Israelis have killed thousands of Lebanese Christians and driven many thousands more from the land. How many Christians has Hezbollah killed or driven off?

I've been somewhat intrigued by your support for the Israeli terrorist state which has just killed over 1000 innocent people, mostly women and children, in your country, in addition to massive damage to housing and infrastructure along with the huge natural disaster they caused by bombing oil tanks, damage to the economy and the continued naval and land blockade, this is in addition to the past 30 years of Israeli crimes committed against your country including the barbaric 1982 carpet bombing of Beirut.

If you don't mind my asking, what is your political affiliation, if any? You seem to be of 1980's Phalange or some other pro-Israeli "Christian" political thinking.

Edited August 31, 2006 by stephen

[musturde]

[quote name='stephen' post='1053925' date='Aug 30 2006, 09:42 PM']
I didn't say that Hezbollah has Christians in it's militant wing, although they may well have Christian allies fighting with them. The article that I posted above states that 20% of the militants killed in the recent Israeli aggression were not Hezbollah members.[/quote]

No, that's not true. The people who died with them who are not hezbollah fighters are civilians.

[quote]
What I was referring to was the Christian political allies of Hezbollah, particularly, Michel Aoun. They haven't attempted to convert or kill him, have they?[/quote]

No, I never said they would. I'm against people who are zealous for either side. You almost sound like you support Hezbollah. They obviously won't try to kill or convert Aoun. Habibi, I was there when the war started. Do you even know why Aoun is supporting Hezbollah?

[quote]
I see this claim quite often. But Hezbollah's alliances with Christians and the support Hezbollah recieves from 80% of Lebanon's Christians including the Maronite President of Lebanon, Emile Lahoud (who states that Hezbollah is [i]not[/i] a terrorist organization, but a legitimate resistance group which liberated Lebanon from the Israeli occupation) would indicate otherwise. [/quote]

I don't believe that's a true figure. 80 percent? Heres the deal, perhaps about 60 percent of the Christians in Lebanon support Aoun. This is probably a bad estimate anyways. The aounis only blindly follow Aoun. Aoun does not care about Hezbollah. In fact, his alliance with them is all political. They have seats in the parliament. He wants to become president. He has seats in the parliament also. He's hoping that, since the parliament votes for the president of Lebanon, that they will vote for him. If you look back one year ago, Aoun was very much against Hezbollah. This is more proof that he is with them only for political reasons. His followers follow him blindly because they're afraid they'll be on the side of the Lebanese Forces(the opposing political party to Aoun that the Aounis HATE) if they are against Hezbollah since Aoun is supporting Hezbollah. I mean he made an alliance with them recently, he can't back down. That's the only reason why he supports them in this war. Hezbollah would never vote for him. They know he can't be trusted. Christians in Lebanon, by nature, hate hezbollah. They do not agree with them having weapons in Lebanon. Emile Lahoud is a joke. Unless you have friends that are Syrian Socialists or Shi'ite, I can't understand why you would even mention him. Even the Aounis hate Lahoud. Barely any Christian likes him at all. He's a puppet of Syria. Most Lebanese people don't even really consider him a leader. The Christians would rather listen to Seniora than Lahoud. This is something that Christians in Lebanon can mostly agree on (unless you're a Syrian Socialist).

[quote]
Let's put it this way, the Israelis have killed thousands of Lebanese Christians and driven many thousands more from the land. How many Christians has Hezbollah killed or driven off?[/quote]
Hezbollah bombed the American troops in Lebanon during the Civil War. Also, just because they want to make Lebanon a fully Muslim nation, which is blatently obvious, it doesn't mean they have to go around killing Christians. When I say Fully Muslim nation, I mean governed by Muslim Laws and run by Shi'ites.

[quote]
I've been somewhat intrigued by your support for the Israeli terrorist state which has just killed over 1000 innocent people, mostly women and children, in your country, in addition to massive damage to housing and infrastructure along with the huge natural disaster they caused by bombing oil tanks, damage to the economy and the continued naval and land blockade, this is in addition to the past 30 years of Israeli crimes committed against your country including the barbaric 1982 carpet bombing of Beirut.[/quote]
Steven, have you read my recent posts? I'm against both sides. Just because I'm not on Hezbollah's side doesn't mean i'm on Israel's side. Hezbollah caused the war out of it's stupidity. Israel went in and went crazy, which was not justified at all. As a Lebanese, I don't agree with either. Hezbollah should give up it's weapons. It should have long ago.

[quote]
If you don't mind my asking, what is your political affiliation, if any? You seem to be of 1980's Phalange or some other pro-Israeli "Christian" political thinking.
[/quote]
There aren't many Kataeb (phalange) members still roaming around. They mostly turned to Lebanese Forces members. The Lebanese Forces haven't stated anything in this war. Neither has the Kataeb. In fact, the Aounis were getting on the Lebanese Forces case for siding with Sa'ad Hariri (FPM),a Sunni Muslim, during the parliamentary elections. Even now they remain allies. If they are some radical group, they wouldn't ally with Muslims or Druze (which is what they are doing now). The Anti Syrians (the Druze, FPM, and the Lebanese Forces) are the opponents of Aoun. Aoun is allied with all the prosyrians, which shows how much he cares about Lebanon. If anything, this isn't about "Christian" political thinking. I honestly don't affiliate myself with any political party. There isn't one that I really like right now.

Edited August 31, 2006 by musturde

[FerociousBadger]

There's a difference between anti semetism ie the hatred of the jewish people for no good reason, you know like nazis. and recognizing that Israel is a terrorist state, which it is.

[stephen]

[quote name='musturde' post='1054731' date='Aug 31 2006, 06:42 PM']
No, that's not true. The people who died with them who are not hezbollah fighters are civilians. [/quote]

That's pretty much what I've said. I speculated that there may have been Christians among them. But I haven't seen any evidence either way.

[quote name='musturde' post='1054731' date='Aug 31 2006, 06:42 PM']

No, I never said they would. [/quote]

Yes, but you see, I was initially responding to a claim made by someone else that "Hezbollah wants to destroy all Jews and infidels." So let's try to keep this in that context.

[quote name='musturde' post='1054731' date='Aug 31 2006, 06:42 PM'] I'm against people who are zealous for either side. You almost sound like you support Hezbollah. [/quote]

I do support them as far as they represent a resistance against Israeli aggression against their homeland and families. Why shouldn't I? If you think that means that I support whatever other political or religious agenda they're pushing then you'd be incorrect. Let's try to make distinctions.



[quote name='musturde' post='1054731' date='Aug 31 2006, 06:42 PM'] They obviously won't try to kill or convert Aoun. [/quote]

I agree. That's all I was trying to point out initially.


[quote name='musturde' post='1054731' date='Aug 31 2006, 06:42 PM'] I don't believe that's a true figure. 80 percent? Heres the deal, perhaps about 60 percent of the Christians in Lebanon support Aoun. [/quote]

No, I've claimed that 80% of Lebanese Christians support Hezbollah in the most recent struggle. I've seen that figure from many different sources.

Now that Hezbollah is going around handing cash to the people who's homes were destroyed by the Israelis, I'm certain that they will be even more popular. President Bush, who has completely abandoned the homeless people of New Orleans could learn a lot about humanitarianism from Hezbollah.

[quote name='musturde' post='1054731' date='Aug 31 2006, 06:42 PM'] This is probably a bad estimate anyways. The aounis only blindly follow Aoun. Aoun does not care about Hezbollah. In fact, his alliance with them is all political. They have seats in the parliament. He wants to become president. He has seats in the parliament also. He's hoping that, since the parliament votes for the president of Lebanon, that they will vote for him. If you look back one year ago, Aoun was very much against Hezbollah. This is more proof that he is with them only for political reasons. His followers follow him blindly because they're afraid they'll be on the side of the Lebanese Forces(the opposing political party to Aoun that the Aounis HATE) if they are against Hezbollah since Aoun is supporting Hezbollah. I mean he made an alliance with them recently, he can't back down. That's the only reason why he supports them in this war. Hezbollah would never vote for him. They know he can't be trusted. Christians in Lebanon, by nature, hate hezbollah. They do not agree with them having weapons in Lebanon. Emile Lahoud is a joke. Unless you have friends that are Syrian Socialists or Shi'ite, I can't understand why you would even mention him. Even the Aounis hate Lahoud. Barely any Christian likes him at all. He's a puppet of Syria. Most Lebanese people don't even really consider him a leader. The Christians would rather listen to Seniora than Lahoud. This is something that Christians in Lebanon can mostly agree on (unless you're a Syrian Socialist). [/quote]

I appreciate your insight into the politics of your nation, but my original point was that I don't believe that Hezbollah intends to "destroy all the Jews and infidels" so all of these things are neither here nor there.

[quote name='musturde' post='1054731' date='Aug 31 2006, 06:42 PM'] Hezbollah bombed the American troops in Lebanon during the Civil War. [/quote]

I've seen no evidence that this is true. But there's overwhelming evidence that the Israelis' have treated Lebanon with utter barbarity.

[quote name='musturde' post='1054731' date='Aug 31 2006, 06:42 PM'] Also, just because they want to make Lebanon a fully Muslim nation, which is blatently obvious, it doesn't mean they have to go around killing Christians. When I say Fully Muslim nation, I mean governed by Muslim Laws and run by Shi'ites. [/quote]

This may be true, and if so then I don't support that agenda. But you must also recognize that the Israelis intend for Lebanon to be an Israeli/US proxy just like Jordan and Saudi Arabia. The people of Lebanon have a right to sovereignty and a right to oppose the Israelis' efforts to control their government.

[quote name='musturde' post='1054731' date='Aug 31 2006, 06:42 PM'] Steven, have you read my recent posts? I'm against both sides. Just because I'm not on Hezbollah's side doesn't mean i'm on Israel's side. Hezbollah caused the war out of it's stupidity. Israel went in and went crazy, which was not justified at all. As a Lebanese, I don't agree with either. Hezbollah should give up it's weapons. It should have long ago. [/quote]

Well we disagree here. If the Israelis have no opposition they'll roll right over everyone. I'm not a fan of Hezbollah's politics or Iran's for that matter, but someone has to stand up to Israeli/US tyranny. Who else is there?


[quote name='musturde' post='1054731' date='Aug 31 2006, 06:42 PM'] There aren't many Kataeb (phalange) members still roaming around. They mostly turned to Lebanese Forces members. The Lebanese Forces haven't stated anything in this war. Neither has the Kataeb. In fact, the Aounis were getting on the Lebanese Forces case for siding with Sa'ad Hariri (FPM),a Sunni Muslim, during the parliamentary elections. Even now they remain allies. If they are some radical group, they wouldn't ally with Muslims or Druze (which is what they are doing now). The Anti Syrians (the Druze, FPM, and the Lebanese Forces) are the opponents of Aoun. Aoun is allied with all the prosyrians, which shows how much he cares about Lebanon. If anything, this isn't about "Christian" political thinking. I honestly don't affiliate myself with any political party. There isn't one that I really like right now.
[/quote]

Thank you again for your insight. I wish you and your family the best in this horrible situation.

Edited September 1, 2006 by stephen

[stephen]

The Harvard professor, Stephen Walt and University of Chicago professor, John Mearsheimer, who wrote a paper earlier this year on the power of the Zionist lobby in Washington DC titled, [url="http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html"]"The Israel Lobby"[/url] have spoken at a conference where they analyze the Zionist lobby's role in securing unquestioning, nearly unanimous support from US politicians for a month's worth of Israeli war crimes in Lebanon.

PDF here:

[url="http://www.cair.com/pdf/Walt_Mearsheimer_Panel_Transcript.pdf"]http://www.cair.com/pdf/Walt_Mearsheimer_P..._Transcript.pdf[/url]

Real video from C-span here:

[url="http://rtsp://video.c-span.org/project/intl/intl082806_lobby.rm"]rtsp://video.c-span.org/project/intl/intl082806_lobby.rm[/url]

You may need to cut and paste this address into your browser.

Edited September 1, 2006 by stephen

[brendan1104]

America, I have a feeling, is going to pay serious consequences for it's endorsement/backing/unneccessary support of Israel.