The "Israel" you don't see on TV

[musturde]

[quote name='ruso' post='1038075' date='Aug 5 2006, 08:12 AM']
My father was a Jew Sefardi converted al Christianity, he married with my mother a Lebanese of rite Maronita. I growi in a Libano in war, hating the Muslims, and dreaming of join with the militias of Aoun. Fortunately my family emigrate to Spain fleeing the war. None has returned since then. [/quote]

I'm just interested, where in Lebanon was your family?
[quote]
The facts are that Israel does not have right to destroy the Libano, not even as "self-defense". [/quote]
Hezbollah has been threatening Israel for the longest time and the government hasn't done anything about it in fear of Hezbollah. Hezbollah, as you know, is very complex. In order for Israel to completely destroy them, they need to attack other areas of Lebanon in order to trap them, take out their communications, and destroy the rockets they have.

[quote]The only that have managed to is to join with all the Lebanese in the hatred to Israel. [/quote]
I kind of agree. Israel tried to make people retaliate against Hezbollah. However, it's not really working. The more they attack, the more people are going to resent them. However, not many of the anti syrians (LF, PSP, FM) support Hezbollah.


[quote]They have murdered almost 1000 innocent civilians, Israel bombard the Christian zones. [/quote]
Are you sure it's that much? I didn't think it even reached 500 yet. Could you please provide a source? Israel's not really attacking the Christian areas. They're trying not to inflict too much damage on Christians. This would not help them politically.

[quote]The war can be extended to other countries. [/quote]
This is very true, why does Hezbollah continue the war then? If Hezbollah gave up, which would help Israel and Lebanon (since militias shouldn't be allowed in a free sovereign country), then the war would end.

[quote]Syria already this implied, of they are the missiles come of Hezbollah. [/quote]
Sorry, I didn't understand what you said here. Are you saying Syria is supplying Hezbollah?

[quote]It is Israel with its politic who to given thousands volunteers to the terrorists. [/quote]
In a way, yes. I can understand this. I've never really seen a Lebanese Christian argue this before. You politically despise Israel and Muslims but support Hezbollah? What happens if a ceasefire happens and Hezbollah doesn't turn over it's weapons? You already know Hezbollah is controlled by Iran and Syria, why should we have a force with outside control within Lebanon? I thought we took Syria out, whats the point of having a militia funded by them still in Lebanon?

[quote]
The anti-Christian feeling of many Jews iis very strong, to my father they consider a traitor, I don't know my family Jew.
[/quote]
I'm sorry it's like this. I don't believe all Jews are like this though. I'm also sorry you don't know you're Jewish side of the family. Perhaps it's because you're dad married a Christian and converted. It's usually resented in Jewish communities to do such a thing.

Edited August 5, 2006 by musturde

[stephen]

Here's a link to a BBC video which documents the extraordinary influence that the Zionist lobby wields in Washington DC and it's control over Evangelicals.

[url="http://www.sweetliberty.org/audio/bbc_zionists.htm"]BBC: A Lobby to Reckon With[/url]

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1038057' date='Aug 5 2006, 05:39 AM']
I wouldn't care what religion it was, a mass migration of people to take over a plot of land that they haven't controlled for over a millenium shouldn't be supported.

I'd feel the same way if a Basque state were created and had constant wars with Spain and France.

That rabbi on cavuto convinced me even more: there are religious reasons from even a Jewish perspective for why there should not be a modern nation-state of Israel.

again, the only problem with any dismantelling of the state of Israel is that every time one of these terrorist organisations gets what it wants, it moves on to something else. Pandora's box has been opened and there's really no way to stop it. But this all started because an entire land was taken away from its proper inhabitants and given to a group of immigrants.

this present conflict started because of Hezbollah, Syria, and Iran, though.

it's all a big mess.
[/quote]

I was going to bite my tounge on this but I would like to thank you Aloysius, for the past 6 months, I have been chatting with a Jewish girl who I was trying to convert to Catholicism.

I told her to "check out phatmass its a great Catholic site." She was seriously thinking of coverting and seeing Jesus Christ as Lord, yet she was "if'y" about Catholics because she was raised to think we... well very much dislike jews (to say it nicely) and their nation of Israel.

But then ol' Mr. Stephen days after I asked her to come to phatmass posted this current post. It was easy for me to convince her he was a wacko, and did not rep the church. Oh but then you had to go and say "NO CATHOLIC THIS and NO CATHOLIC THAT" and say mess like "[u]Israel never should have been formed, it was a mistake of unspeakable proportions[/u], but what are we to do?"

Thanks to comments like this from you Sir, it has set me back 12 months, and confermed all her fears of Catholics!!! If I can ever get her to consider the Catholic Church again, I pray you do not waste your time making what you adment is illrealvent and un-needed comments about the birth of the current state of Israel. Its here to stay.

Edited August 6, 2006 by KnightofChrist

[stephen]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1038028' date='Aug 5 2006, 02:00 AM']
But Jews are not our enemy as JPII said they are our "our dearly beloved brothers."[/quote]

The Old Testament Patriarchs and the faithful Israelites are our elder brothers in the faith. The rabbis and their followers who uphold the Pharisaic tradition--explicitly condemned by Jesus Christ--are most certainly not our elder brothers in the faith. They are the spiritual and ideological progeny of the Pharisees.

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1038028' date='Aug 5 2006, 02:00 AM']
"The Jewish religion is not extrinsic to us but in a certain way intrinsic to our own religion. With Judaism, therefore, we have a relationship which we do not have with any other religion. You are our dearly beloved brothers, and, in a certain way, it can be said that you are our elder brothers."


[/quote]

The Old Testament religion is intrinsic to our religion. The Pharisaic tradition of rabbinic Judaism is not only extrinsic to Catholicism, it is entirely hostile to Catholicism. Moreover, the religious texts of rabbinic Judaism, the Talmud and Kaballah, have been entirely condemned by the Catholic Church for all eternity.

[quote]"The impious Talmudic, Cabalistic and other wicked books of the Jews are hereby entirely condemned and they must always remain condemned and prohibited and this law must be perpetually observed." (Pope Clement VIII, Index Expurgatrius, 1592)

"Although in the Index issued by Pope Pius IV, the Jewish Talmud with all its glossaries, annotations, interpretations and expositions were prohibited: but if published without the name Talmud and without its vile calumnies against the Christian religion they could be tolerated; however, Our Holy Lord Pope Clement VIII in his constitution against impious writings and Jewish books, published in Rome in the year of Our Lord 1592 … proscribed and condemned them: it was not his intention thereby to permit or tolerate them even under the above conditions; for he expressly and specifically stated and willed, that the impious Talmudic Cabalistic and other nefarious books of the Jews be entirely condemned and that they must remain always condemned and prohibited, and that his Constitution about these books must be perpetually and inviolably observed."(Pope Leo XIII, Index Expurgatrius, "The Talmud and other Jewish books," 1887)[/quote]

Edited August 6, 2006 by stephen

[stephen]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1038057' date='Aug 5 2006, 07:39 AM']


again, the only problem with any dismantelling of the state of Israel is that every time one of these terrorist organisations gets what it wants, it moves on to something else.
it's all a big mess.
[/quote]

Has it occurred to you that Islamic resistance groups didn't even exist until the Zionists came to Palestine? What need would there be for resistance groups if there is nothing to resist against?

Before the Zionist movement came into the picture, Christians, Muslims and Jews lived side by side in the Holy land and in Spain for long periods of time with little conflict.

As long as the Zionist system of racial preference and Pharisaic double standards exists there will be no justice. And as long as there is no justice there will be no peace.

It's the only solution there is. It's against God's will for there to be a "Jewish" state in Palestine. This was common knowledge to Jews and Christians since the exile began nearly 2000 years ago. The Zionist movement is a modern aberration which is absolutely contrary to God's will.

God is not mocked.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='stephen' post='1038369' date='Aug 5 2006, 09:50 PM']Before the Zionist movement came into the picture, Christians, Muslims and Jews lived side by side in the Holy land and in Spain for long periods of time with little conflict.[/quote]This is Muslim propoganda. My family, along with millions of Christian Arabs fled from the Levant around 1900 AD in a mass exodus, long before modern Israel existed.

I would much rather be a Christian or Muslim living as a citizen of Israel than a non-Muslim in a Muslim country, where non-Muslim are persecuted, treated as second-class citizens, and sometimes are outright denied legal citizenship.

Edited August 6, 2006 by Mateo el Feo

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='stephen' post='1038369' date='Aug 5 2006, 07:50 PM']
Has it occurred to you that Islamic resistance groups didn't even exist until the Zionists came to Palestine? What need would there be for resistance groups if there is nothing to resist against?

Before the Zionist movement came into the picture, Christians, Muslims and Jews lived side by side in the Holy land and in Spain for long periods of time with little conflict.

As long as the Zionist system of racial preference and Pharisaic double standards exists there will be no justice. And as long as there is no justice there will be no peace.

It's the only solution there is. It's against God's will for there to be a "Jewish" state in Palestine. This was common knowledge to Jews and Christians since the exile began nearly 2000 years ago. The Zionist movement is a modern aberration which is absolutely contrary to God's will.

God is not mocked.
[/quote]

What need would there be for resistance groups if there is nothing to resist against? Anyone who is not Muslim. If you believe Muslims "live in peace" with non-muslims you are dead wrong.

From historyofjihad.org

[quote]What is Jihad: The Arabic word Jihad is derived from the root word Jahada (struggle). Jihad has come to mean an offensive war to be waged by Muslims against all non-Muslims to convert them to Islam on the pain of death. Jihad is enjoined on all Muslims by the Quran.[/quote]

[url="http://www.historyofjihad.org/persia.html"] The Jihad against Zoroastrian Persians of Iran, Baluchistan and Afghanistan (634 to 651)[/url]

[url="http://www.historyofjihad.org/byzantine.html"] The Jihad against the Byzantine Christians (634 to 1453)[/url]

[url="http://www.historyofjihad.org/egypt.html"] The Jihad against Christian Coptic Egyptians (640 to 655)[/url]

[url="http://www.historyofjihad.org/sudan.html"] The Jihad against Christian Coptic Nubians - modern Sudanese (650)[/url]

[url="http://www.historyofjihad.org/africa.html"] The Jihad against pagan Berbers - North Africans (650 to 700)[/url]

[url="http://www.historyofjihad.org/spain.html"]The Jihad against Spaniards (711 to 730)[/url]

[url="http://www.historyofjihad.org/reconquista.html"]The Reconquista against Jihad in Spain (730 to 1492)[/url]

[url="http://www.historyofjihad.org/france.html"]The Jihad against Franks - modern French (720 to 732)[/url]

[url="http://www.historyofjihad.org/italy.html"]The Jihad against Sicilians in Italy (812 to 940)[/url]

[url="http://www.historyofjihad.org/china.html"]The Jihad against Chinese (751)[/url]

[url="http://www.historyofjihad.org/turkey.html"]The Jihad against Turks (651 to 751)[/url]

[url="http://www.historyofjihad.org/armenia.html"]The Jihad against Armenians and Georgians (1071 to 1920)[/url]

[url="http://www.historyofjihad.org/crusades.html"]The Crusade against Jihad (1096 – 1291 ongoing)[/url]

[url="http://www.historyofjihad.org/mongolia.html"]The Jihad against Mongols (1260 to 1300)[/url]

[url="http://www.historyofjihad.org/index1.html"]The Jihad against Hindus of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh (638 to 1857)[/url]

[url="http://www.historyofjihad.org/malaysia.html"]The Jihad against Indonesians and Malays(1450 to 1500)[/url]

[url="http://www.historyofjihad.org/poland.html"]The Jihad against Poland (1444 to 1699)[/url]

[url="http://www.historyofjihad.org/rumania.html"]The Jihad against Rumania (1350 to 1699)[/url]

[url="http://www.historyofjihad.org/russia.html"]The Jihad against Russia (1500 to 1853)[/url]

[url="http://www.historyofjihad.org/bulgaria.html"]The Jihad against Bulgaria (1350 to 1843)[/url]

[url="http://www.historyofjihad.org/serbia.html"] The Jihad against Serbs, Croats and Albanians (1334 to 1920)[/url]

[url="http://www.historyofjihad.org/greece.html"]The Jihad against Greeks (1450 to 1853)[/url]

[url="http://www.historyofjihad.org/albania.html"]The Jihad against Albania (1332 - 1853)[/url]

[url="http://www.historyofjihad.org/croatia.html"]The Jihad against Croatia (1389 to 1843)[/url]

[url="http://www.historyofjihad.org/hungary.html"]The Jihad against Hungarians (1500 to 1683)[/url]

[url="http://www.historyofjihad.org/austria.html"]The Jihad against Austrians (1683)[/url]

[url="http://www.historyofjihad.org/israel.html"]The Jihad against Israelis (1948 – 2004 ongoing)[/url]

[url="http://www.historyofjihad.org/america.html"]The Jihad against Americans (9/11/2001)[/url]

[url="http://www.historyofjihad.org/britain.html"]The Jihad against the British (1947 onwards)[/url]

[url="http://www.historyofjihad.org/philippines.html"]The Jihad against the Filipinos in Mindanao(1970 onwards)[/url]

[url="http://www.historyofjihad.org/indonesia.html"]The Jihad against Indonesian Christians in Malaku and East Timor (1970 onwards)[/url]

[url="http://www.historyofjihad.org/russia1.html"]The Jihad against Russians (1995 onwards)[/url]

[url="http://www.historyofjihad.org/dutch.html"]The Jihad against Dutch and Belgians (2003 onwards)[/url]

[url="http://www.historyofjihad.org/scandinavia.html"]The Jihad against Norwegians and Swedes (2003 onwards)[/url]

[url="http://www.historyofjihad.org/thailand.html"]The Jihad against Thais (2003 onwards)[/url]

[url="http://www.historyofjihad.org/nigeria.html"]The Jihad against Nigerians (1965 onwards)[/url]

[url="http://www.historyofjihad.org/canada.html"]The Jihad against Canadians (2001 onwards)[/url]

[url="http://www.historyofjihad.org/latinamerica.html"]The Jihad against Latin America (2003 onwards)[/url]

[url="http://www.historyofjihad.org/australia.html"]The Jihad against Australia (2002 onwards)[/url]

[url="http://www.historyofjihad.org/globaljihad.html"]The Global Jihad today (2001 – ongoing)[/url]

[url="http://www.historyofjihad.org/waronterror.html"]The War on Terror against Jihad today (2001– ongoing)[/url]

[url="http://www.historyofjihad.org/future.html"]The Vision for the post-Islamic (and post-religious) world[/url]

[Aloysius]

aha, a guilt trip... I am responsible for her not becoming Christian because I disagree with the modern nation-state of Israel. oh boy, let me go cry now.

if I hurt her patriotism, I'm sorry. I don't believe in Israel being attacked, I am against Hezbollah and all violence against Israel. But at the same time I cannot agree with the creation of a nation state the Cheif Rabbi of Rome was against at the time and that the Jewish community in Jerusalem was against at the time. it was a bad decision the UN made to create the nation-state.

but all I hurt was her patriotism in a nation-state, not her religious heritage and not her ethnicity. I would ask her to rethink equating her religious heritage with this nation state and study the entire history of the Jewish diaspora and their previous strong support for a state in which the Jewish people were dispersed throughout the nations. like I said, it was that Rabbi on Cavuto that convinced me traditional Judaism did not and should not have supported the creation of Israel: for religious reasons from the perspective of the Jewish religion (not necessarily from the perspective of the Christian religion)

like I have said, there's nothing that can be done anymore morally to reverse the negative effects of the creation of Israel: what needs to be done now is draw a clear and definitive border for Israel, Palestine, and Lebanon (not based upon what lands were promised in the Bible, mind you, but based upon where people live now). Hezbollah needs to be wiped out; that will be a difficult task. Hamas needs to be disarmed.

saying that muslims lived in peace with everyone before zionism is quantifiably false. saying that the creation of the nation-state of Israel enflamed even more violence is quantifiably true.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1038520' date='Aug 6 2006, 12:25 AM']
aha, a guilt trip... I am responsible for her not becoming Christian because I disagree with the modern nation-state of Israel. oh boy, let me go cry now.
[/quote]

I did, I cried like a big baby. I am responsible for her not become Christian I failed her, I alone am to blame. Your comments did not at all help, I wrote you in anger and depression, she was the first person EVER that I believe I could actually get to come to Christ and His Church, I failed and it is the most depressing thing that I have ever felt in the whole of my life.

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1038520' date='Aug 6 2006, 12:25 AM']but all I hurt was her patriotism in a nation-state, not her religious heritage and not her ethnicity.
[/quote]

Thing is you do not know her, you can not say that all you hurt was her patriotism. In short, It is my understanding in talks with the young girl, that Israel, the Current Israel was given to the Jews by God. So if this is true that she believes this, it was not only her patriotism that was hurt, but also her faith in God.

But whatever I dont wish to talk of this anylonger its too depressing man, very very sad.

Edited August 6, 2006 by KnightofChrist

[Aloysius]

[quote]that Israel, the Current Israel was given to the Jews by God. So if this is true that she believes this, it was not only her patriotism that was hurt, but also her faith in God.[/quote]

well there are Jews who would disagree based on the Talmud which says that they are in exile, destined to live among the nations as good citizens of them.

if an American believes that the United States was given to them by God, and I said that it was not, then all I hurt was their patriotism not their religious heritage. if they tie their religious heritage and faith to their patriotism, that cannot be helped, but it's not going to make me not treat their nation-state like every other nation-state in a political discussion.

don't beat yourself up over it (or me ) if she's going to become Catholic she'll become Catholic one day. most conversions we make don't happen until years later when we might not even know the person anymore... planting seeds and all. I think the Holy Spirit (from whom all conversions come) does that on purpose to keep us humble and knowing that we don't convert people.

as a Catholic, she could believe Israel is given to the Jews by God nowadays... but as a Catholic I can believe the United States was given to us by God too and that's not going to change how either of us should deal with the politics surrounding these nation-states.

[stephen]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1038520' date='Aug 6 2006, 02:25 AM']


saying that muslims lived in peace with everyone before zionism is quantifiably false. [/quote]

I don't deny that there have been periods of violence in the 1300 years in which Islam has existed. And equally compelling lists of violent actions taken by Christian nations over the past 2000 years could easily be thrown together as well. If it doesn't mention the conditions that led to the violent acts or the periods of peace between the violence, then it's a distortion of history, what we would call, propaganda.

It would be patently false to deny that Muslims have lived with Christians and Jews for long periods of time without conflict as well. That was the state that Palestine existed in before the Zionists moved in.


[quote name='Aloysius' post='1038520' date='Aug 6 2006, 02:25 AM'] saying that the creation of the nation-state of Israel enflamed even more violence is quantifiably true.
[/quote]

I think that's an understatement.

[stephen]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1038412' date='Aug 5 2006, 11:21 PM']


I would much rather be a Christian or Muslim living as a citizen of Israel than a non-Muslim in a Muslim country, where non-Muslim are persecuted, treated as second-class citizens, and sometimes are outright denied legal citizenship.
[/quote]

If you were a Christian or Muslim in the Israeli state, you most certainly would be a second rate citizen due to the racist and religiously preferential laws that exist in the "Jewish" state. And it's customary for Orthodox "Jews" to persecute and spit at Christians in the Israeli state, especially if they're wearing a cross or crucifix.

If you were a Christian or Muslim living in the West Bank at this moment you would have no electric or water. And your home could very well be demolished or bombed. There would be Israeli warplanes buzzing your neighborhood all night creating sonic booms so that you would get no sleep and your children would be in a constant state of panic. You would be prevented from getting medical help if you needed it, and many other such hellish things would you experience daily.

Watch the video linked to in the first post of this thread to see how the Israeli racial supremacist system works.

Edited August 6, 2006 by stephen

[musturde]

I don't know if this helps, but you can tell her you know a Lebanese Catholic who doesn't hate Jews (or believe in destroying the state of Israel)... haha. She probably wouldn't have even gotten close if something like this was to get her angry. Especially since most people here are pro Israel.

[quote name='stephen' post='1038587' date='Aug 6 2006, 09:04 AM']
If you were a Christian or Muslim in the Israeli state, you most certainly would be a second rate citizen due to the racist and religiously preferential laws that exist in the "Jewish" state. And it's customary for Orthodox "Jews" to persecute and spit at Christians in the Israeli state, especially if they're wearing a cross or crucifix.

If you were a Christian or Muslim living in the West Bank at this moment you would have no electric or water. And your home could very well be demolished or bombed. There would be Israeli warplanes buzzing your neighborhood all night creating sonic booms so that you would get no sleep and your children would be in a constant state of panic. You would be prevented from getting medical help if you needed it, and many other such hellish things would you experience daily.

Watch the video linked to in the first post of this thread to see how the Israeli racial supremacist system works.
[/quote]

Stephen, you're a Palestinian sympathizer, correct?

Edited August 6, 2006 by musturde

[ruso]

[quote name='stephen' post='1038369' date='Aug 6 2006, 03:50 AM']
Has it occurred to you that Islamic resistance groups didn't even exist until the Zionists came to Palestine? What need would there be for resistance groups if there is nothing to resist against?

Before the Zionist movement came into the picture, Christians, Muslims and Jews lived side by side in the Holy land and in Spain for long periods of time with little conflict.



[/quote]
Peace, but low control muslim.
The Moslem to invade Spain, they permitted to many to continue being Christians while they paid extra tributes.
Which does not signify that there was not pursuits against Christians in the zone dominated by Moslems.

[ruso]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1038412' date='Aug 6 2006, 05:21 AM']
This is Muslim propoganda. My family, along with millions of Christian Arabs fled from the Levant around 1900 AD in a mass exodus, long before modern Israel existed.

I would much rather be a Christian or Muslim living as a citizen of Israel than a non-Muslim in a Muslim country, where non-Muslim are persecuted, treated as second-class citizens, and sometimes are outright denied legal citizenship.
[/quote]
Unfortunately the Moslems and Christians are citizens of second in Israel, al the same as various Jews as the Falassa or Ismaelits , the law is equal for all, what does not occur in many countries islamics, but not the opportunities.
You ask it to him al arab congres stabbed in Israel, or to various leaders threatened of death, Or the statements of Sharon, when they reported him that the Christians ask the new testament to swear loyalty in the army.