The "Israel" you don't see on TV

[stephen]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW1-_JmXQt0&eurl="]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW1-_JmXQt0&eurl=[/url]

Edited July 31, 2006 by stephen

[musturde]

Stephen, please explain yourself to me. Why do you hate Israel?

[cmotherofpirl]

[url="http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/001203.html"]http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/001203.html[/url]

[cmotherofpirl]

[url="http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,19955774-5007220,00.html"]http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,...5007220,00.html[/url]

[stephen]

The religion which provides the rationalizations for the killing of innocent civilians on the lips of so many Americans today is not Catholicism. It is rabbinic Judaism. The Israeli newspapers admit this. Why don't you?

[quote]The Yesha Rabbinical Council announced in response to an IDF attack in Kfar Qanna (in which 60 innocent civilians, more than half of them children were killed yesterday, July 30, 2006) that "according to Jewish law (see: Talmudic law) during a time of battle and war there is no such term as 'innocents' of the enemy."

All of the discussions on Christian morality are weakening the spirit of the army and the nation and are costing us in the blood of our soldiers and civilians" the statement said. (Yediot Aharonot)[/quote]

You people must admit the fact, as the Israelis do, that your concept of morality is not Catholic. It is founded in Talmudic Judaism.

This is a video documenting the massacre that took place in Qana, Lebanon yesterday, the second Israeli perpetrated massacre of civilians in Qana in 10 years. The first was the bombing of a UN camp in Qana in 1996 in which 102 refugees were killed and 600 wounded:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wl3W_8Ya6RU&eurl="]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wl3W_8Ya6RU&eurl=[/url]

Edited July 31, 2006 by stephen

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='stephen' post='1034802' date='Jul 31 2006, 10:36 AM']
The religion which provides the rationalizations for the killing of innocent civilians on the lips of so many Americans today is not Catholicism. It is rabbinic Judaism. The Israeli newspapers admit this. Why don't you?
You people must admit the fact, as the Israelis do, that your concept of morality is not Catholic. It is founded in Talmudic Judaism.

This is a video documenting the massacre that took place in Qana, Lebanon yesterday, the second Israeli perpetrated massacre of civilians in Qana in 10 years. The first was the bombing of a UN camp in Qana in 1996 in which 102 refugees were killed and 600 wounded:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wl3W_8Ya6RU&eurl="]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wl3W_8Ya6RU&eurl=[/url]
[/quote]

We do not and will not "have" to admit to your anti-semitic views. If it was not an accident then again you must blame Hezbullah, they are the ones that started this new war. Hezbullah, if not firing from the apartment buildingl was firing near it, innocent civilians died because of Hezbullah using them as shields.

You are not Catholic are you, you in fact lack the morality to logically judge what "Cathoilc morality", Christian or even basic morality is itself.

Edited August 1, 2006 by KnightofChrist

[stephen]

It's time that this "using human shields" nonsense was disposed with.

First of all, the argument presupposes that using innocent human beings as shields against Israeli aggression will afford protection to those who might use innocent human beings as shields. The evidence is overwhelming that this is not so. The Israelis kill innocent civilians as a matter of religious and military policy.

[quote][size=3][b]Yesha Rabbinical Council: During time of war, enemy has no innocents[/b][/size]

The Yesha Rabbinical Council announced in response to an IDF attack in Kfar Qanna that "according to Jewish law, during a time of battle and war, there is no such term as 'innocents' of the enemy."

All of the discussions on Christian morality are weakening the spirit of the army and the nation and are costing us in the blood of our soldiers and civilians," the statement said. (Efrat Weiss)

[url="http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3283720,00.html"]http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3283720,00.html[/url] [/quote]

also see the Sanhedrin's legal ruling:

[url="http://www.thesanhedrin.org/en/legal/psak5766Sivan24b.html"]Permissibility of responding to an attack that originates from within or near civilian population centers during wartime[/url]

So you see, even if Hezbollah did "hide among civilians" it wouldn't make a difference. The Israelis will just kill the civilians anyway as they always have and continue to do. The Israelis apply the argument post facto as an excuse for killing civilians and most people buy the ridiculous argument that Hezbollah is to blame for "hiding" in their homeland of Lebanon. If the argument was reversed, literally every town in the Israeli state which has Israeli soldiers stationed there (or should I say, "hiding" there) would be a legitimate target.

And the fact is that Israelis use innocent civilians as human shields themselves:

[img]http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7760/1663/320/human%20shield.jpg[/img]

As our Lord said so many times throughout the Gospel speaking in reference to the ideological forebears of the Israeli authorities, "hypocrites!"

Edited August 1, 2006 by stephen

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='stephen' post='1034979' date='Jul 31 2006, 06:21 PM']
It's time that this "using human shields" nonsense was disposed with.[/quote]

Agreed, it is time for Hezbollah to stop the nonsence of using human shields, [u]now[/u].

[quote name='stephen' post='1034979' date='Jul 31 2006, 06:21 PM']
First of all, the argument presupposes that using innocent human beings as shields against Israeli aggression will afford protection to those who might use innocent human beings as shields. The evidence is overwhelming that this is not so.[/quote]

But in fact innocent human beings are indeed being used as shields as well as the UN, by Hezbollah. Hezbollah will also use civilian deaths caused by them as propaganda, when Israel is force to attack Hezbollah who use human shields.

[quote][color="#FF0000"][u]Unintentional injury[/u] to the adjacent population due to military operations against the launching of missiles [from within civilian population centers] by the enemy is unavoidable. The enemy cynically exploits the Jewish recoiling from the shedding of innocent blood in order to moderate military actions by the State of Israel. Accordingly they places firearms and missile launchers in areas the adjoining to and within civilian population centers in order to to achieve immense propaganda gains, by parading before the media injuries to children and families that were hurt, including even those who were not hurt, or were hurt maliciously by the enemy itself, for example the affair of the child Muhammad al-Dura.[/color][/quote]

[quote name='stephen' post='1034979' date='Jul 31 2006, 06:21 PM']
The Israelis kill innocent civilians as a matter of religious and military policy.
also see the Sanhedrin's legal ruling:

[quote]Yesha Rabbinical Council: During time of war, enemy has no innocents

The Yesha Rabbinical Council announced in response to an IDF attack in Kfar Qanna that "according to Jewish law, during a time of battle and war, there is no such term as 'innocents' of the enemy."

All of the discussions on Christian morality are weakening the spirit of the army and the nation and are costing us in the blood of our soldiers and civilians," the statement said. (Efrat Weiss)

[url="http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3283720,00.html"]http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3283720,00.html[/url][/quote]
[/quote]

No Sir, your mixed up Hezbollah kills innocent civilians as a matter of religious and military policy. Israel is forced to defend herself from an enemy that is not innocent, and an enemy that uses innocent people as sheilds that means it is the enemy that is to blame for the death of innocent people. And that is the point of the Yesha Rabbinical Council.


[quote name='stephen' post='1034979' date='Jul 31 2006, 06:21 PM']
[url="http://www.thesanhedrin.org/en/legal/psak5766Sivan24b.html"]Permissibility of responding to an attack that originates from within or near civilian population centers during wartime[/url]

So you see, even if Hezbollah did "hide among civilians" it wouldn't make a difference. The Israelis will just kill the civilians anyway as they always have and continue to do. The Israelis apply the argument post facto as an excuse for killing civilians and most people buy the ridiculous argument that Hezbollah is to blame for "hiding" in their homeland of Lebanon. If the argument was reversed, literally every town in the Israeli state which has Israeli soldiers stationed there (or should I say, "hiding" there) would be a legitimate target.
[/quote]

They do hide among civilians (Hezbollah), and it does make a difference. Everytime Israel strikes a target in this new war, eveytime time Hezbollah is at or very near to that location using humans as sheilds. What is ridiculous is Hezbollah hides behind masks and their own people. The Israeli military, has military bases for the military, and civilian towns for civilians. Hezbollah uses civilian apartments, and UN bases as military bases, to shoot rockets into civilian towns in Israel.

[quote name='stephen' post='1034979' date='Jul 31 2006, 06:21 PM']
And the fact is that Israelis use innocent civilians as human shields themselves:

[img]http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7760/1663/320/human%20shield.jpg[/img]
[/quote]


That picture could have been taken anywhere at anytime, and the boy or young man could be sitting on the hood for anyreason, I dont see any proof from the picture that the people in the photo are underattack. Please show proof that this young man in this photo is a "human shield."

[quote name='stephen' post='1034979' date='Jul 31 2006, 06:21 PM']
As our Lord said so many times throughout the Gospel speaking in reference to the ideological forebears of the Israeli authorities, "hypocrites!"
[/quote]


Israeli authorities or Hate filled Anti-Semitists? Where in spriture does Christ say "in 2006 the Israeli authorities will be hypocrites"? I tell yah I'm not seeing it here...

[stephen]

[quote][size=3][b]Israel faces human shield claim[/b][/size]

[b]Israeli human rights activists have accused border police of using a 13-year-old Palestinian as a human shield.[/b]

BBC News

Friday, 23 April, 2004

[img]http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40070000/jpg/_40070725_humanshield.jpg[/img]


Rabbis for Human Rights say that Mohammed Badwan was tied by police to a jeep during a recent demonstration in the West Bank village of Bidou.

The police apparently hoped this would stop Palestinians from throwing stones during a protest against Israel's West Bank barrier.

Israel's Supreme Court banned the use of human shields in 2002.

Rabbis for Human Rights also say that the boy was beaten by Israeli police before being arrested.

Israeli police spokesman Gil Kleiman said: "It's unclear what happened, we do not expose civilians to physical damage willingly."

The case is to be investigated by the Israeli Justice Ministry.

'Scared'

Mohammed later told the Reuters news agency: "I was scared when they got me at first, I thought they would put me in prison. I was scared a stone would hit me."

Mohammed's father, Saeed, said: "When I saw him on the hood of the jeep, my whole mind went crazy - he was shivering from fear."

Rabbis for Human Rights director Rabbi Arik Ascherman was detained by police when he tried to intervene to help Mohammed.

"It is very sad to see that we have come to this position. There is disbelief," Rabbi Ascherman said.

'Excessive Force'

Palestinian activists in Bidou, a focal point of recent protests against the West Bank barrier, say that the Israeli authorities are increasingly using excessive force to disperse stone throwers.

Medics say four Palestinians have been shot dead this year during violent clashes at protests against the barrier.

Israeli officials say the barrier is necessary to prevent suicide bombings iniside Israel, while Palestinians say the barrier is in reality a land-grab intended to annex West Bank territory occupied by Israel since 1967.

Shot

The use of human shields was banned after an incident in which soldiers forced the neighbour of a suspected militant to knock on his door and deliver their demands. The militant shot and killed the man.

Marwan Dalal, of Israeli Arab rights organisation Adalah, said there was evidence that despite the Supreme Court ban, the use of human shields by Israeli security forces was continuing.

He it said it was more common for soldiers to use Palestinians as human shield during military operations rather than against stone throwers.

[url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3650791.stm"]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3650791.stm[/url][/quote]

Hypocrites.

[quote][size=3][b]Israel's human shields draw fire[/b] [/size]

[b]Human rights groups return to court over army's use of Palestinian civilians[/b]

Chris McGreal in Hebron
Thursday January 2, 2003
The Guardian


Basem Maswadeh knew he was in trouble when an Israeli soldier pushed him into the barber's chair and reached for the clippers.
The humiliation of a shaved head - or, more accurately, having chunks of hair ripped out by the brutal wielding of the shears - was the start of an ordeal that culminated with Mr Maswadeh and two friends standing in a Hebron street as Israeli troops shot over their shoulders at stone-throwing Palestinians.

"The soldiers hid behind our backs as they pushed us forward," said Mr Maswadeh. "Then they put their guns on our shoulders and began shooting. We felt our eardrums burning, but when we tried to put our hands over our ears, they beat our hands away. The noise was terrible because the gun was right next to my ear."

The soldiers fired dozens of plastic bullets, using the three Palestinian men as shields, before the crowd dispersed.

In May, as Israeli human rights groups sought a supreme court order barring soldiers from seeking protection behind human shields after their widespread use during the army's assaults on Jenin and other West Bank cities, the military admitted the policy was illegal and said it would stop.

But human rights groups will return to court on Sunday to argue that the army has only ended such abuses selectively, and is in breach of court orders.

"The method is the same each time," says Israel's most prominent human rights group, B'Tselem. "Soldiers pick a civilian at random and force him to do dangerous tasks that put their lives at risk."

Sergeant Nati Aharoni gave the army magazine, B'Mahaneh, an example of a case showing how they go about it.

"We had previously seized this building, so we were concerned that explosives would be waiting for us when we came back. Acting according to customary practice in such cases, we took a Palestinian who lived nearby and had him comb the site. He opened all the doors and cabinets, and didn't find anything," he said. "We shook his hand and said thanks."

The army says it has issued an order barring the use of human shields, but it contends that another policy, known as the "neighbour procedure", can continue because it is not illegal.

The "neighbour procedure" involves soldiers "requesting" of civilian that they enter buildings and demand that wanted men inside surrender. Human rights groups say that almost no one does such a thing voluntarily.

In August, soldiers pressed 19-year old Nidal Abu Mukhsan to enter the house of a Hamas activist and tell him to come out quietly. The activist, Nasser Jarar, mistook Mr Abu Mukhsan for a soldier and shot him fatally in the head.

The army says it is not at fault. It says Israeli soldiers "did not go into the building with him, so there are no grounds for contending that this was a case of using a human shield".

But human rights groups say the "neighbour procedure" is in direct contravention of a second court order, in August, barring its use, yet it is still widespread.

"The army is really convinced that use of the "neighbour procedure" protects civilians," said Yael Stein, the research director of B'Tselem.

"They say that if a Palestinian is knocking on the door, then anyone inside is less likely to start shooting. They have told the court this. But this is very dangerous for the people they force to do it, and it is completely illegal under international law."

Mr Maswadeh's experience in Hebron followed a different pattern. He owns a barber's shop. Like many firms, it defies the Israeli curfew. That is how Hebron's Palestinians survive.

When an army patrol swept along the road on December 3, shopkeepers quickly brought their shutters down. But the soldiers wanted to know who was in the barber's.

"We were scared," said Mr Maswadeh. "When the soldiers pay attention to you, they always abuse you. We did not want to open the door."

So the four Israeli soldiers grabbed the owner of the neighbouring grocery shop, Bilel Abu Qwaider.

"They told me, 'We are going to break your bones and destroy your shop if you don't get your neighbour to open his door,'" Mr Abu Qwaider said. "They were pointing their guns at me and threatening to shoot everyone inside. I begged Basem to open."

The barber realised he had little choice. "There were five of us, and they took us one by one into the street and beat us," Mr Maswadeh said. "Then they brought us back in and a soldier ordered me to sit in the barber's chair."

"He grabbed the electric clipper and brought it very slowly down on my head. It was very painful. I was bleeding because he was ripping my hair out. I knew I was in trouble when I opened the door, but I never imagined this."

Word of the beatings at the barber's shop quickly spread, and a crowd began throwing stones at the soldiers. It was then that Mr Maswadeh and two friends were marched outside and used as shields as the soldiers fired into the crowd.

When the mob backed off, the incident took another strange twist.

"They took pictures of us. They took some pointing their guns at us, and some resting their guns on our heads. One of the soldiers had a picture taken of him using one of my friends as a chair," Mr Maswadeh said.

The army's attorney general says he has ordered a military police investigation into the case.

Human rights groups say the army only investigates when forced by publicity, and it rarely punishes those responsible for such abuses. They say the military's attitude to people in the occupied territories was exposed by the Israeli army chief of staff, Moshe Ya'alon, when in a newspaper interview he likened the Palestinians to cancer and said he was administering chemotherapy.

"There is no doubt a culture of impunity," said Ms Stein. "Soldiers are rarely charged. There are not many military police investigations. Soldiers can do what they want.

The message soldiers are getting is, 'Don't violate the law, but we won't do anything if you do, unless it's a severe case'. The message is blurred," she said.

[url="http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,867343,00.html"]http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,867343,00.html[/url][/quote]

Hypocrites



[quote][size=3][b]20 July 2006: Israeli Soldiers use civilians as Human Shields in Beit Hanun[/b] [/size]

B'Tselem's initial investigation indicates that, during an incursion by Israeli forces into Beit Hanun, in the northern Gaza Strip, on 17 July 2006, soldiers seized control of two buildings in the town and used residents as human shield.

After seizing control of the buildings, the soldiers held six residents, two of them minors, on the staircases of the two buildings, at the entrance to rooms in which the soldiers positioned themselves, for some twelve hours. During this time, there were intense exchanges of gunfire between the soldiers and armed Palestinians. The soldiers also demanded that one of the occupants walk in front of them during a search of all the apartments in one of the buildings, after which they released her.

International humanitarian law forbids using civilians as human shields by placing them next to soldiers or next to military facilities, with the intention of gaining immunity from attack, or by forcing the civilians to carry out dangerous military assignments.

B'Tselem has demanded that the Judge Advocate General immediately order a Military Police investigation into the matter and prosecute the soldiers responsible for the action.

Chronology of the Events

In the IDF's Operation Summer Rains in the Gaza Strip following the abduction of Cpl. Gilad Shalit, engineer, artillery, and infantry forces made an incursion into Beit Hanun, a town of some 32,000 people in the northern Gaza Strip, early in the morning on 17 July. According to the IDF Spokesperson, during the incursion, "IDF struck approximately twenty armed terrorists." The announcement added that, "Forces also carried out engineering work to harm terror organizations' infrastructure and hamper their activity, and arrested a number of wanted men… During searches, forces discovered three Kalashnikov rifles, a carbine, a pistol, and ammunition."

Around 6:00 A.M., troops in armored personnel carriers and bulldozers drove up to two adjacent four-story buildings in the middle of the town, near the a-Nasser mosque. The bulldozers destroyed the concrete wall around each building and then destroyed one of the external walls on the ground floor of each of the buildings. The extended Kafarneh family lives on the bottom three floors of one of the buildings. On the fourth floor are the offices of the Ramatan Palestinian News Agency. The 'Ali family lives in the other building.

Part of the force, twelve soldiers in the estimate of one of the witnesses, burst into the Kafarneh building through the area where the wall was destroyed, firing stun grenades as they entered. At the time, there were 25 people in the building, including 11 children. Some of those present were from the 'Ali family who left the adjacent building when the military entered Beit Hanun. The soldiers called all the residents to gather in the living room on the ground floor, and then searched them. Threatening the occupants with his weapon, one of the soldiers ordered 'Aza Kafarneh, a 43-year old woman, to accompany him to search each of the floors in the building and to open the doors of each of the rooms. At the end of the search, the soldiers ordered all the occupants, except for three, to leave the building. As they left, there was a heavy exchange of gunfire between IDF soldiers and Palestinians. In her testimony to B'Tselem, 'Aza Kafarneh related that, in light of the situation, she requested the soldier to let them remain in the building, but the soldiers refused. "We had to lay flat on the ground and crawl to the neighbor's house..."

The three who were kept in the building were two of her sons, Hazem, 14, and Qusay, 16, and her nephew, Khaled, 23. The three were taken to the staircase, at the entrance to the third-floor apartment, where the soldiers were located. The three sat there until around 8:00 P.M, about 45 minutes before the soldiers left the building. During this time, soldiers inside and outside the building were engaged in exchanges of gunfire with armed Palestinians. The staircase was not in the direct line of gunfire. Just before the end of the incident, the soldiers ordered the three to go downstairs, in front of them, to the entrance of the building.

At the same time (around 6:00 AM), other members of the military force had seized control of the building in which the 'Ali family lives. The only people in the building were the mother, 'Ayesha, 60, and her three sons, Hazem, 29, Tareq, 25, and 'Emad, 41. 'Ayesha 'Ali was taken into an interior room on the ground floor, where she stayed with her hands tied until the end of the events.

The soldiers ordered her three sons to undress and then searched them. The soldiers then cuffed their hands behind their back and blindfolded them. According to the testimony of Hazem, the soldiers tightened the cuffs intentionally so as to hurt them. One of the soldiers kicked him in the chest after he complained about the pain. However, when his hands began to swell and bleed from the cuffs, another soldier put a new pair of cuffs on his hands.

'Emad, who serves in the Palestinian police force, handed over his personal weapon at the beginning of the events, in response to the soldiers' demand. Another member of the family who also serves in a Palestinian police unit was not present at the time. Soldiers searched for his weapon, but they did not find it. During the search, the soldiers broke a lot of the family's furniture and caused great destruction in some of the apartments.

Following the search, one of the soldiers took Hazem's cell phone and called four persons whose numbers were in the phone's memory. The soldier told each of them: "If you want Hazem, Tareq, and 'Emad released, bring your weapons." According to Hazem's testimony, the four persons work with him at Ramatan and were selected at random; none of them have any weapons.

Around 8:00 A.M., the three men were taken to the staircase next to the third-floor apartment, where the soldiers were gathered. The three remained on the stairs, their hands cuffed behind their back and their eyes covered, until 8:45 P.M., when the soldiers left the building. At a certain point, one of the brothers, Tareq, moved a bit, and a soldier hit him in the chest and threatened to kill him. While they sat there, an intense exchange of gunfire took place between soldiers in the building and armed Palestinians outside. In contrast to the situation in the other building, many bullets entered the staircase area via the window and struck the wall, above the heads of the three occupants. One of the brothers, 'Emad, was taken by the soldiers at the end of the incident and remains in Israeli detention.

During the events, 'Aza Kafarneh was in contact with B'Tselem and asked the organization to help attain the release of her family members who were being held by the soldiers. A B'Tselem staff member, Najib Abu Rokaya, called the IDF's District Coordination Office in the Gaza Strip and warned them about the incident. The soldier on the other end of the phone referred Abu Rokaya to the DCO's legal advisor, Captain Haim Sharbit. After Abu Rokaya spoke with him, Sharbit said that he could do nothing about the matter because "we are not familiar with the incident."

Legal Background

The testimonies taken by B'Tselem indicate that the Israeli soldiers who took over the buildings used the occupants as human shields. They placed civilians on the staircase, next to the rooms where the soldiers were located, with the intention of deterring the armed Palestinians from attacking the building and/or so that the civilians would be located between the soldiers and the armed Palestinians, should the latter manage to penetrate the building and try to shoot them. The soldiers used one of the occupants to open the doors of the apartments, apparently out of fear that other persons were hiding there and would open fire when the door was opened.

International humanitarian law, which states the rules applying in armed conflicts, requires the sides to distinguish between combatants and civilians, and to protect the lives and dignity of civilians. The Fourth Geneva Convention, in Article 27, states that civilians who find themselves in the hands of one of the parties are "entitled, in all circumstances, to respect… They shall at all times be humanely treated, and shall be protected especially against all acts of violence or threats thereof…"

Article 28 of the Convention expressly prohibits the use of civilians as human shields by placing them alongside soldiers or military facilities, with the hope of attaining immunity from attack. The official commentary of the Convention refers to this practice, which was common in the Second World War as "cruel and barbaric." The Convention, in Articles 31 and 51, also prohibits the use of physical or moral coercion on civilians or forcing them to carry out military tasks.

Despite these prohibitions, for a long period of time following the outbreak of the second intifada, particularly during Operation Defensive Shield, in April 2002, the IDF systematically used Palestinian civilians as human shields, forcing them to carry out military actions which threatened their lives. It was not until a High Court petition was filed by Israeli human rights organizations opposing such action, in May 2002, that the IDF issued a general order prohibiting the use of Palestinians as "a means of 'human shield' against gunfire or attacks by the Palestinian side.'" Following this order, the use of this practice declined sharply. However, according to IDF interpretation, assistance by Palestinians, with their consent, in warning a wanted person hiding in a certain location is not deemed use of a human shield. However, this practice was also outlawed following the ruling of the Israeli High Court of Justice that this practice is inconsistent with the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Clearly, then, the IDF's treatment of the Palestinian occupants in the two Beit Hanun buildings flagrantly breached fundamental rules of international humanitarian law, as well as IDF regulations. B'Tselem wrote to the military's Judge Advocate General and demanded that he immediately order a Military Police investigation regarding this incident, and that he prosecute all those responsible for these illegal acts.

[url="http://www.btselem.org/english/Human_Shields/20060720_Human_Shields_in_Beit_Hanun.asp"]http://www.btselem.org/english/Human_Shiel..._Beit_Hanun.asp[/url][/quote]

Hypocrites

Edited August 1, 2006 by stephen

[stephen]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1035076' date='Jul 31 2006, 10:26 PM']
... it is time for Hezbollah to stop the nonsence of using human shields [u]now[/u].
[/quote]

It's time for the Israelis to stop killing Lebanese children and blaming it on Hezbollah.


Dear "knight,"

Your morality is rabbinic, not Catholic. I've stated this several times. I've produced evidence in the form of a response from the Yesha Rabbinical Council and a legal ruling of the Sanhedrin of rabbinic Judaism that both prove the validity of what I've stated.

You, on the other hand have provided a lot of personal opinion. It's time to cease the rhetoric and start producing authoritative Catholic sources that support your position--that the killing of innocent civilians in war is morally justified. This is a Catholic forum after all, right?

And here's a hint to help you save time in your search for support: [i]none exists.[/i]

Edited August 1, 2006 by stephen

[KnightofChrist]

Agreed this is Hypocrital of the few Israeli Soldiers who comment this crime. But the artcles clearly state that this is against Israeli law, so not the whole of the Israeli nation can be blamed. War is ugly, and as in all wars ethier side is completely innocent. Should The US give Iraq back to Sadam because of a few Hot Head Rambo wanna bes? Should The US give Europe back to the Nazis because we carpet bomb most of Germany? Should Israel not have the right to defend herself from Terrorist (who nearly always use their own countrymen or UN bases sheilds) because of a few Israeli Soldiers that break Israel law?

No.

[Lounge Daddy]

Ok, Stephen, one article about a flap around a photo and two articles with stories perpetuated by the questionable Israeli human rights group B’Tselem. Congratulations.
[url="http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,19960056-5006301,00.html"]I can link stuff, too [/url]

You seem to forget that this is a war… wars by their very nature are very vile.
You also seem to forget another thing, the people you seem to agree with started this war with Israel. How sad.

Your hate is showing, pal.

[stephen]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1035309' date='Aug 1 2006, 02:41 AM']
Agreed this is Hypocrital of the few Israeli Soldiers who comment this crime. But the artcles clearly state that this is against Israeli law, so not the whole of the Israeli nation can be blamed. [/quote]

Oh, I see. All of the Israeli citizens should not be held responsible for the crimes of a few Israeli soldiers.

But then why is all of Lebanon paying for the crimes of Hezbollah?

Hypocrites.



[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1034928' date='Jul 31 2006, 06:56 PM']
Hezbullah, if not firing from the apartment buildingl was firing near it, innocent civilians died because of Hezbullah using them as shields.

[/quote]

I'd like to see some evidence in support of this claim.

[stephen]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1035310' date='Aug 1 2006, 02:54 AM']

You also seem to forget another thing, the people you seem to agree with started this war with Israel. How sad.[/quote]

How do you figure that? The Israelis have been at war against the nation of Lebanon since before there even was a Hezbollah.

How sad indeed.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='stephen' post='1035303' date='Aug 1 2006, 12:18 AM']
It's time for the Israelis to stop killing Lebanese children and blaming it on Hezbollah.

Then Hezbollah should stop using Lebanese children as sheilds.

Dear "knight,"

Your morality is rabbinic, not Catholic. I've stated this several times. I've produced evidence in the form of a response from the Yesha Rabbinical Council and a legal ruling of the Sanhedrin of rabbinic Judaism that both prove the validity of what I've stated.

You, on the other hand have provided a lot of personal opinion. It's time to cease the rhetoric and start producing authoritative Catholic sources that support your position--that the killing of innocent civilians in war is morally justified. This is a Catholic forum after all, right?

And here's a hint to help you save time in your search for support: [i]none exists.[/i]
[/quote]

Dear Stephen,

Are Israeli attacks on Hezbollah just?

Let's turn to the Catechism of the Catholic Church for specific rules. The Catechism provides four criteria for determing whether a war is just or is not just. These criteria also provide guidance on methods that can be used in a just war, when it states: "the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated."

[quote]* 2312 The Church and human reason both assert the permanent validity of the moral law during armed conflict. "The mere fact that war has regrettably broken out does not mean that everything becomes licit between the warring parties."108

* 2313 Non-combatants, wounded soldiers, and prisoners must be respected and treated humanely.
Actions deliberately contrary to the law of nations and to its universal principles are crimes, as are the orders that command such actions. Blind obedience does not suffice to excuse those who carry them out. Thus the extermination of a people, nation, or ethnic minority must be condemned as a mortal sin. One is morally bound to resist orders that command genocide.

* 2314 "Every act of war directed to the indiscriminate destruction of whole cities or vast areas with their inhabitants is a crime against God and man, which merits firm and unequivocal condemnation."109 A danger of modern warfare is that it provides the opportunity to those who possess modern scientific weapons especially atomic, biological, or chemical weapons - to commit such crimes.[/quote]

The Israeli attacks on Hezbollah are not "directed to the indiscriminate destruction of whole cities or vast areas with their inhabitants". Israel has not carpet bombed any Lebanese city. There is no evidence I have seen or you have shown to show that the Israelis have perpusly targeted civilians alone. Civilian infrastructure used by Hezbollah, yes, but civilians alone, no Sir. Certainly not the same way Hezbollah sends thousands of rockets to attack civilians in Israel. The Israelis are not in volialtion of paragraphs 2314. The provisions of 2312 are more broad, so they provide less guidedence. However, civilian deaths and damage is unavoidable in war, so just because that happends doesnt mean 2312 has been violated.

A full look at Israel shows that both the war and how Israel is caring it out are just under the Catholic doctrine of a "Just War". The Catechism states quite clearly in 2309: "The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good."

May the peace of Christ be with you,
Knight of Christ

[quote name='stephen' post='1035312' date='Aug 1 2006, 01:12 AM']
How do you figure that? The Israelis have been at war against the nation of Lebanon since before there even was a Hezbollah.

How sad indeed.
[/quote]


Hezbollah is yet another in a long line of hate filled Anti-Semitists Terrorist bent on destroying Israel just because her people are Jewish.

[quote name='stephen' post='1035311' date='Aug 1 2006, 01:02 AM']
Oh, I see. All of the Israeli citizens should not be held responsible for the crimes of a few Israeli soldiers.

But then why is all of Lebanon paying for the crimes of Hezbollah?
[/quote]

Humm... Because Hezbollah is using their own people as sheilds.

[quote name='stephen' post='1035311' date='Aug 1 2006, 01:02 AM']
Hypocrites.
I'd like to see some evidence in support of this claim.
[/quote]

Ok, I'll try to find that for you, but like all the evidence that shows how wrong you are you'll just blow right over it and pretend it isnt there. As you did in the last thread.