Genesis

[cmotherofpirl]

Well, my thought on this was/is that we do, after all, accept that a virgin gave birth, and that's not something we see every day. Why is it so hard to also believe that the earth and everything in it was created in six days, or that Jonah lived inside the belly of a big fish for a few days? Why would these things outside the province of God's power and be unreasonable, but a virgin birth is not? I don't get that.

It is not hard to believe at all.

But Genesis is a teaching story in the same way Jesus's parables are.

Both contain truths we have to believe, but are not historical facts.

Genesis is not science, it is religious truth.

[jasJis]

Hey, God can do what God wants to do.

Virgin Birth

Dual natures of Jesus

Creator of All Existence

Grace through physical realities

The Real Presence of God in the Eucharist.

[Doesn't have to be literal to be True. Look for the reason WHY as well. That's much more important than HOW.]

[bookofjohn]

Regarding the sin of Adam and Eve, and death. I have read once on a website that the sin of Adam and Eve, can be found in our DNA; which is the defects in it. But during the earlier times, the defects were not very much because there were only Adam AND Eve. But as time goes by, they procreate(even among siblings), and then the defects in the DNA increased because of the replication between 2 similar DNA sequence. [simblings share 25% of DNA info, parents share 50% of DNA info with the child]. Those who learn Mendel's Law would be familiar with this. Anyway, then when things started to get worse(deformed babies, etc.. : the result of DNA defects), in Leviticus we see the law forbiding incest.

Check out http://www.answersingenesis.org/

BookOfJohn

Edited January 6, 2004 by bookofjohn

[Circle_Master]

Virgin Birth

Dual natures of Jesus

Creator of All Existence

Grace through physical realities

The Real Presence of God in the Eucharist.

[Doesn't have to be literal to be True. Look for the reason WHY as well. That's much more important than HOW.]

I don't understand your last sentence in reference to the rest JasJis, please elaborate.

and yes, answersingenesis.com is a great site. I have wandered through several of it's halls.

[jasJis]

Circle,

In regrads to Genesis, or Jonah and the Wale, I've heard very committed arguments for literal and figurative understandings. I've seen people come to blows practically. (I swear, I wasn't going to hit them very hard!).

Then have somebody in the group say, "Hey! Why did God bother to create the World?" The attitude changes. The reasons Why are at the root of what many people understand as How. An extreme Literal Fundamentalist and a philisophical Catholic will start using examples of How to explain the same Why. (Because God wanted to, could, and did.)

'Tis a beautiful thing.

But when you undermine people's understanding of How, we feel that you are also undermining our logic for Why, which we are much more committed to and so won't back off a millimeter.

[Circle_Master]

Circle,

In regrads to Genesis, or Jonah and the Wale, I've heard very committed arguments for literal and figurative understandings. I've seen people come to blows practically. (I swear, I wasn't going to hit them very hard!).

Then have somebody in the group say, "Hey! Why did God bother to create the World?" The attitude changes. The reasons Why are at the root of what many people understand as How. An extreme Literal Fundamentalist and a philisophical Catholic will start using examples of How to explain the same Why. (Because God wanted to, could, and did.)

'Tis a beautiful thing.

But when you undermine people's understanding of How, we feel that you are also undermining our logic for Why, which we are much more committed to and so won't back off a millimeter.

I think the why part is easy - to glorify Himself.

We all hopefully agree on that much at least

I wouldn't mind jumping in on a 'is Jonah real?' debate. It's hard to argue when in Kings it talks about him as a court prophet. Genesis - yes, tough to do. I used to think everyone who disagreed with literal 6 day creation was being influenced by culture and science. Now, today, I don't agree with literal 6 day creation or day age or really any of them. I think it deals more with.. the why part I suppose. Why is our universe how it is? Because God is glorifying Himself. Why did God take part in all of creation? Because God was creating a magnificent world for us to see. Yeah how and why can be related sometimes, and probably here, but it is just the process of figuring out how God glorified Himself.

not sure if I am too off topic by what you said. but it compliments the previous arguments I think.

[jasJis]

I am not comfortable with 'to glorify Himself' as a reason why. Because He loves us, would be the specific reason why. To glorify Himself would be a consequence of His Love and Glory. In creating Exisitence, He glorifies Himself, but that wasn't why.

See what I mean?

[jasJis]

See how great things happen when Brothers speak in love?

I went to the Catechism for aid in explaining my understanding to you, Circle. When I read your post, 'to glorify Himself' seemed like it was fulfilling a need of God's which I could not agree with. That fact that creation brings Glory to God I agreed with you on.

Hmm. Don't want to agree with a prot carelessly , so I went to the Catechism section on Creation so I could reference Scripture, etc. I've been illuminated. Here is what I found:

III. "The World Was Created for the Glory of God"

293

Scripture and Tradition never cease to teach and celebrate this fundamental truth: "The world was made for the glory of God."134 St. Bonaventure explains that God created all things "not to increase his glory, but to show it forth and to communicate it,"135 for God has no other reason for creating than his love and goodness: "Creatures came into existence when the key of love opened his hand."136 The First Vatican Council explains:

This one, true God, of his own goodness and "almighty power," not for increasing his own beatitude, nor for attaining his perfection, but in order to manifest this perfection through the benefits which he bestows on creatures, with absolute freedom of counsel "and from the beginning of time, made out of nothing both orders of creatures, the spiritual and the corporeal. . . ."137

294

The glory of God consists in the realization of this manifestation and communication of his goodness, for which the world was created. God made us "to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace,"138 for "the glory of God is man fully alive; moreover man's life is the vision of God: if God's revelation through creation has already obtained life for all the beings that dwell on earth, how much more will the Word's manifestation of the Father obtain life for those who see God."139 The ultimate purpose of creation is that God "who is the creator of all things may at last become ‘all in all,' thus simultaneously assuring his own glory and our beatitude."140

IV. The Mystery of Creation

God creates by wisdom and love

295

We believe that God created the world according to his wisdom.141 It is not the product of any necessity whatever, nor of blind fate or chance. We believe that it proceeds from God's free will; he wanted to make his creatures share in his being, wisdom, and goodness: "For you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created."142 Therefore the Psalmist exclaims: "O LORD, how manifold are your works! In wisdom you have made them all"; and "The LORD is good to all, and his compassion is over all that he has made."143

footnotes:

138 Eph 1:5-6; 140 1Cor 15:28; 141 Wis 9:9; 142 Rev 4:11; 143 Ps 104:24 & 145:9.

Easy for you, not for me.

God created the world as a manifestation of His Glory because He is All Glory, but not out of a need for Glory. God is Glory because of His Love. We are a manifestation of His Glory and Love.

Edited January 6, 2004 by jasJis

[Circle_Master]

yes, however. do a search for every occurance of "glorify" in the Bible and look at how many times God does something only to glorify Himself. I would half to think love is an offshoot of that.

Actually

Because He loves us - He seeks to glorify Himself. He is the best thing there is, therefore His love causes Him to want to glorify Himself - so we can see it, and so we can take joy in His greatness. The Westerminster Confession captures this well enough I believe.

What is the chief end of man?

To Glorify God and enjoy Him forever.

[TABBY]

Hey guys!

I have heard many that have said, we should not take Genesis literally rather take it metaphorically. And of course I have heard others(especially among our Evangelical brothers and sisters) that what is written in Genesis should be taken literally.

I would love to hear and discuss the opinions of everyone on this board, especially on areas concerning: 1)Adam & Eve(real people?) 2)The fruit(is a real fruit or a representation of sin?) 3)The Flood(Did it happened?) and of course 4)6 Days of creation?(or was it just a representation?)

Ready! Get set... GO!

There is many answers....to this question(s)....

There are alot of theories....some really believe it happened just like that...and they also believe that the world was created in 6 days...literally.

There has been studies where they THINK they found the ark...but does that mean Adam and Even really surffaced...the earth?

There is schlars that says Exodus came BEFORE Gen....it was to answer the people's questions "Who are we, and where did we come from?"....and Gen is the answer to Ex.

There is also known the second chapter of genuis is older than the first.

It gets complicated in trying to explain all that....

There is a book called "who wrote the bible", and it gets into detail on that...

I myself have not really thought of it much......if it really happened or not....that is really not that important to me as much as What Christ has done for us....I guess what I am saying IS.....I spend more time in what Christ did than what happened or what didnt happened....

[Circle_Master]

There is also known the second chapter of genuis is older than the first.

What is this based on? I would be interested to look at it. Genesis 1 is of an interest to me.

[jasJis]

Actually

Because He loves us - He seeks to glorify Himself. He is the best thing there is, therefore His love causes Him to want to glorify Himself - so we can see it, and so we can take joy in His greatness. The Westerminster Confession captures this well enough I believe.

What is the chief end of man?

To Glorify God and enjoy Him forever.

Baltimore Catechism:

6. Q. Why did God make you?

A. God made me to know Him, to love Him, and to serve Him in this world, and to be happy with Him forever in the next.

:clap:

[Circle_Master]

isn't that scary - we agree on something :P

[jasJis]

It's not scary, I was expecting it....

eventually.

::

[Norseman82]

Isn't it possible that God just spoke to the ancients in terms and images that they could understand? Much like we speak to children differently than adults?