In Defense Of Islam

[Bruce S]

Islam!! Defend it? Has Bruce lost his mind again?!

Perhaps.

But, having studied Islam intensely for a long time, I was fascinated in the appeal it has on people, the dedication that it engenders with it's followers and the piety that is so evident.

What is the allure of Islam today?

I submit some things they do right for discussion.

1: They do pray. They put Christians to shame with this one. All Muslims are expected to wake up to prayer, and do so four more times each and every day. For them, there is no ONE DAY for prayer, each and every day is a reminder to them of God. I like that one.

2: Tithing, Muslim style. We, the Christians, endlessly squabble over the AMOUNT one is expected to give, some claim they give a full Tithe, but most don't even those that tell you they do Source

However, the amount a Muslim is pledged to give, is set as one of the five pillars of Islam, it is 2 1/2 of NET WORTH, annually, not of gross, of net. This is to be directed not to a church, but can be, it is to feed the poor, and help the less fortunate. Very few Christians would even come close to this level of giving. For example, if you had an house, furniture, a few cars, and possesisons, pensions, etc worth 200,000, you would be expected to give 5.000 annually. In the USA, only certain Evangelical Pentecostals give at these rates.

3: Morality. Yes, morality. One of the prime beefs that Muslims have is that the Christian west is perverting THEIR cultures. Our values, gratuitous sex, young that do not respect elders, drugs, homosexuality, all of this is permeating from OUR cultures into theirs they hate it, they hate us for allowing it in our culture, they hate us more for exporting it to theirs.

4: Education religion style. Like it or not, they do know their Q'uran/Koran. From early childhood most Muslims are steeped in their faith, they know what they believe and they defend it. It is perverted nowadays with hate towards the west, and that is the only side we, the westerners see, but internally, when not dealing with the west, they talk religion all day long. To them, religion is inseperable from life. Good way to live, wrong religion perhaps, but they are living it.

I will add more as this conversation develops....

Edited January 5, 2004 by Bruce S

[bookofjohn]

I agree with all 5 statements Bruce made and I can identify with those statements because I am living in an Islamic country.

Anyway, don't you guys find what Islam is today, is similar to what we ought to be? 1)The Brotherhood, 2)To refuse conformity to this world(Romans 12), 3)Scripture and Prayer(Ephesians 6)

I once went to this talk on ISLAM, done by Pentecostal evangelists and that talk is about ISLAM being the next Anti-Christ. In that talk it goes to say that ISLAM is Satan's answer to Calvary. And that there is just ONE Islam.. and no other variations. According to them, ISLAM considers all in this world to be MUSLIM and those who are not muslim are to be considered as infidels(3rd class, or 2nd class at best).. and those who become muslim are reverting(notice not converting) back to Islam.. They also said that in Islam the world is like a mosque to them.. and of course, the world being a mosque they would not like other religious buildings to be build on it.. so if possible, they would remove them. And it is OK to do ANYTHING(e.g. murder, massacre, rape..) as long as it is for the glory of God, it would not be considered a sin. The conclusion of that talk was: all of us here need to evangelize urgently especially towards the Muslims(living in Islamic countries) because they are seriously deprived of the Gospel. The Pentecostal speakers also urge us to pray HARD because they believe ISLAM is something that MAN cannot overcome, and we SERIOUSLY need God's help.

I am not sure whether ISLAM is the ANTI-CHRIST but one thing I am sure: Islam has already revived it's evangelism work... and the converts to ISLAM is increasing. And we Christians need to work harder to evangelise.

BookOfJohn

[mulls]

great posts.

[M.SIGGA]

you could have made the post shorter by stating that it's totally based on works. all it takes to be a muslim is do this and this and this and this ... yadayadayada...

[Circle_Master]

i think that's a perspective many have of the Catholic Church as well. if you just do the sacraments, and confess the sins, you have grace and will enter heaven.

[Sojourner]

Circle, it's not as though Protestants are immune from this line of thinking. I've seen it plenty of examples of it. You can't go to heaven if you drink, smoke, or chew (or go out with girls that do). You've gotta sing the songs right, clap along with everyone else, and every once in a while, it's a good idea to break down in front of the church at the altar call.

Every church has it's own way of doing things, and once you've got the rhythm down in a particular church, it's just as easy go through the motions in a Protestant church as it is in a Catholic church.

Edited January 6, 2004 by Sojourner

[cmotherofpirl]

i think that's a perspective many have of the Catholic Church as well. if you just do the sacraments, and confess the sins, you have grace and will enter heaven.

well, yes.

Because most people who are devout enough to be going to confession and Commnion until the end of their live, do love God and will go to heaven.

[Bruce S]

you could have made the post shorter by stating that it's totally based on works. all it takes to be a muslim is do this and this and this and this ... yadayadayada...

Hmmm....

Many of us here not similarities with Catholicsm to that remark.

We define "salvation" as a GIFT, without need to DO religious observance, the Catholic Church adds in the sacramental system and Protestants regard those as a "works" requirement.

Not to belabor the point, but just noting it in passing.

[Anna]

i think that's a perspective many have of the Catholic Church as well.  if you just do the sacraments, and confess the sins, you have grace and will enter heaven.

Circle,

You said this same thing on another thread, and I told you then that Sacraments are not "works" or things we do, but gifts that Christ left the Church, which we receive.

I listed all seven of them for you.

Receiving a gift is not performing a "work."

Perhaps you don't understand it.

Let me put it this way:

Baptism: Jesus says, "I've built a Church for you, would you like to join?"

Reconciliation: Jesus says, "Oh, I see you have a stain there on your soul, would you like Me to clean that up for you?"

Eucharist: Jesus says, "I am offering a banquet. Come, eat, drink."

Confirmation: Jesus says, "Receive the Holy Spirit."

Matrimony: Jesus says, "I will join the two of you as one and bless you."

Holy Orders: Jesus says, "I will make you fishers of men."

Annointing of the Sick: Jesus says, "I am with you, by your side, helping you to persevere through illness, suffering, even unto death."

So, you see, Circle, in the Sacraments, it Jesus who is doing the work. We are simply receiving His gifts, His goodness, His graces.

Pax Christi. <><

*thinks* How did he get from Islam to Catholic Sacraments?!

Pax Christi. <><

Edited January 6, 2004 by Anna

[jasJis]

BruceS: We define "salvation" as a GIFT, without need to DO religious observance, the Catholic Church adds in the sacramental system and Protestants regard those as a "works" requirement.

Um. Hello?? McFly?? Many Protestant denominations believe in Sacraments. The Protestant ones who don't are the newest ones.

[Bruce S]

This is where we are talking DISTICTIVELY DIFFERENT LANGUAGE.

Protestants say this, "works" thing is Catholic, becuase you NEED your "Sacraments" in order to RETAIN salvation, there is non without them.

We define things on faith.

So, to us, the sacramental system translates as "works" ... to you it doesn't.

Most Protestant denominations accept TWO rites ordained by Jesus and his times.

Baptism, and Communion.

Neither one of which has any role in salvation.

Just two groups seeing the same thing, but seeing it through different ends of the looking glass.

That will never be resolved.

Edited January 6, 2004 by Bruce S

[jasJis]

This is where we are talking DISTICTIVELY DIFFERENT LANGUAGE.

Protestants say this, "works" thing is Catholic, becuase you NEED your "Sacraments" in order to RETAIN salvation, there is non without them.

We define things on faith.

So, to us, the sacramental system translates as "works" ... to you it doesn't.

Most Protestant denominations accept TWO rites ordained by Jesus and his times.

Baptism, and Communion.

Neither one of which has any role in salvation.

Just two groups seeing the same thing, but seeing it through different ends of the looking glass.

That will never be resolved.

Bruce,

You don't speak for all of Protestant theology. Get off your 'expert' soapbox. You aren't. Please identify YOUR OPINION as such.

Not all Protestants call Sacraments "works" by the definition you just provided.

Many things have been resolved. There is no resolution if there is no TRUTH.

All things will be resolved eventually because God is ALL TRUTH and it has been promised to us. You and I don't have to agree on it because WE don't establish or define it. That is God's role. You seem to think that TRUTH will exist when we all have the same opinion.

Also. Your comment that Baptism and Communion have nothing to do with salvation makes it seem as you are presenting that as a universal Protestant doctrine. Bruce, that is WRONG and not the case. It's your opinion, and NOT universal Protestant theology.

Edited January 6, 2004 by jasJis

[Bruce S]

Also. Your comment that Baptism and Communion have nothing to do with salvation makes it seem as you are presenting that as a universal Protestant doctrine. Bruce, that is WRONG and not the case. It's your opinion, and NOT universal Protestant theology.

I guess your reading skills are deteriorating this morning.

Reread my posting:

We define things on faith.

So, to us, the sacramental system translates as "works" ... to you it doesn't.

Most Protestant denominations accept TWO rites ordained by Jesus and his times.

Baptism, and Communion.

Did you miss the word ***MOST*** in it?

Where I come from, MOST doesn't mean ALL.

[jasJis]

Dude, read your post.

Your "most" statement only referenced the acceptance of Baptism and Communion as 'rites'. I did not comment about Prot denoms accepting "Rites".

You denied them being considered as "Sacraments" with the same connotations of Catholicism. That isn't true in all Prot theology.

You made it seem that all Prot denoms did not thing Baptism and Communion, as Sacraments, have nothing to do with Salvation. That isn't true in all Prot theology.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Not ALL Muslims are the perfect, pious people you speak about in this post. Just like Christianity, they have the devout, and the weak.