Northern Ireland

[Ellenita]

Now for the protestants, they have to understand that catholics are fully human and need to be included in all areas of power, that includes business, finance and even the military.

The first part of your sentence suggests that either you personally believe or the protestants (and by default the protestant church) believe that catholics are somehow not fully human if it now needs to be explained that they "are fully human"! It's also indicative in the language that you use to describe having children - it's been a long while since I heard such a God given gift reduced to the terminology of "breeding" - though of course I accept that there may be a cultural difference between us in the way the language is used. Is it acceptable to use it in relation to human beings in the US?

No harm to you but the catholics do this whole thing where they make out that they are the underdogs - rubbish.

Proud Protestant, the discrimination towards catholics in Northern Ireland by successive British governments has been well documented by human rights organisations. In fact, Britian has had numerous cases taken out against her in the European court of human rights in terms of our violation of various international treaties on the rights of individuals - it's a fact that we need to acknowledge if there is to be any hope of reconciliation in the future.

They have two main parties, Sein Fein, whom I absolutely despise

Irrespective of what you feel about it, Sinn Fein is an officially recognised party, and is the only political party to have had it's voice publicly censored in the media in my living memory. There are political parties which spout overtly racist dogma which I personally find offensive and yet they have never been banned in this way. Isn't that discrimination?

Members of Sinn Fein consistently win during elections. So do members of the DUP. As I understand it, it's the DUP who are refusing to move the peace accord forward at this moment in time.

What a mess my country has created because of her incessant greed for an empire. I truely believe she will be answerable for the many lives lost on both sides.

[M.SIGGA]

I rarely if ever state something without being able to back it up:

Thus, the Catholics WERE "outbreeding" Protestants two to one, now are "down to" outbreeding them ONLY by 50% !!

Grin.

See, the breeding statement was true in Northern Ireland, AND is true here in the USA too.

I have statistics that show that to be true here also.

see it does payoff not to support birth control :lol:

[hyperdulia again]

Ellenita, Princess Michael of Kent is my cousin (about9 generations removed, but cousin she is nonetheless).

Isn't she Catholic? I know that it is illegal for a Catholic to mount the throne, but I could've sworn that under the Royal Marriage Act that as long as Her Majesty's permission was granted for the lesser member's of the family it was fine, but i guess you'd be in a better position to know than I.

[Ash Wednesday]

I've been to Northern Ireland. It's a really fascinating place. My best friend studied at the University of Ulster for a while and I have a friend that lives there.

I don't understand why they call it a "Catholic" and "Protestant" battle now. I think the more accurate description would be the Loyalists vs. Nationalists label I've heard. Loyalists being loyal to the throne, Nationalists wanting a united Ireland.

What is really sad is the toll this kind of fighting with the so-called religious overtones has had on a lot of my twenty/thirtysomething peers there. Generally the ones that I know and met honestly either don't CARE about religion, or are very bitter about religion. And they were "Catholics" and "Protestants" all swilling cider and Guinness at the same table together.

Edited January 6, 2004 by Ash Wednesday

[Ellenita]

Ellenita, Princess Michael of Kent is my cousin.....isn't she catholic?

Ah, ha! Now I know why you're coming over Hyper.....it's that family reunion thing isn't it?! Does this mean I'm going to have to get out the best china for our cup of tea together?

Yes, she most certainly is Catholic. I don't think Prince Michael is, but both of them had to formally agree that they would not lay claim to the throne. Although not a catholic, Prince Michael was also required to do this as a British monarch can not be catholic nor married to one. Should something happen which wipes out all the royals so that in theory Prince Michael would be the next in line to the succession, the line would pass to his his nearest male relative instead. Princess Michael converted some time after they married I believe and would have had to formally obtain the Queen's permission to do this. All members of the royal family (however 'minor') have to ask the Queens permission to marry anyway. Permission is not always granted - the most recent case that is publicly known about being Princess Margaret though the refusal was not on religious grounds. Of course there may have been other more recent refusals which didn't make it in the press!

Now that we know Edward IV was probably illigitimate, who knows, one of the decendents of the Plantagenents might one day challenge their right to the throne anyway!!!

I aplogise to everyone if my tone was not very charitable in my previous post. I had such high hopes for the peace process and am deeply saddened that it seems to be on hold at the moment. I tend to get very emotional about the inability of politicans to get together and work out a solution!

[Proud Protestant]

I've been to Northern Ireland. It's a really fascinating place. My best friend studied at the University of Ulster for a while and I have a friend that lives there.

I don't understand why they call it a "Catholic" and "Protestant" battle now. I think the more accurate description would be the Loyalists vs. Nationalists label I've heard. Loyalists being loyal to the throne, Nationalists wanting a united Ireland.

What is really sad is the toll this kind of fighting with the so-called religious overtones has had on a lot of my twenty/thirtysomething peers there. Generally the ones that I know and met honestly either don't CARE about religion, or are very bitter about religion. And they were "Catholics" and "Protestants" all swilling cider and Guinness at the same table together.

Hiya.

yes the 'loyalist' and 'nationalist' term is used more commonly now.

Northern ireland is a fasinating place - those whom dont live there find it intriguing, but they're better to avoid it during marching season as many riots break out at this time.

I am being loyal to the throne, and I dont realli have a problem with catholic, but sometimes this whole situation aggrivates me. I know some 'loyalists' are as bad as catholics, some are no better than the other side. Of course murders are committed by protestants, but I still do not understand why murders can help govern this country. (Gerry Adams etc)

There was an agreement many many years ago were it was decided that Northern Ireland would remain seperate, and it should stay that way!!

If Ireland was joined, i think disaster would strike. There still wouldnt be peace, catholics would hate protestants and vice versa. I think Catholics would probably be in favour and treated better by the Irish government.

I dont tend to be bothered by the whole thing - but most of us can get caught up in the flow and get mad @ the other denomination for whatever reason. But this problem will take decades to sort - as sometimes it is bread into a young child that they must hate the other denomination, henceforth the next generation feels hate for the other. Most that do get angry are simply defending their denomination, but i think murder is a bit too far.

Later

[Sammy Blaze]

Essentially, this mirrors the situation here in the USA, in the states of California and Texas. There too, you have large numbers of immigrant and native Catholics who are agitating for a RETURN of California and Texas to Mexico.

Using culture and religion, they want to reverse history, and move a territory from it's rightful owners [however that happened] and affiliate with a majority Catholic nearby entity.

Using violence [and yes, they have here too, but not as often] they want to achieve with force, what history has handed them.

Quite possibly the funniest or most paranoid statement I've ever heard...

Of course you must blame the mexicans.....it's a conspiracy, I should know, I'm a part of the secret alliance that wants to revert Texas and California back to Catholic Mexico.... :ph34r: sorry I can't stop laughing.........(grin)

.....still waiting to see actual proof of the above statements............

Have you seen the "re-districting" politicians are trying to get passed in Congress for Texas Congressional lines. Funny how the new district lines dilute the areas of minority votes, to the extreme of spliting counties in halves....I won't get anymore into that.....I guess that's the gov't's way of keeping down the "revolution."

maybe it wouldn't be so bad if the US was a Catholic entity lol.....

keeping in mind the RIGHTFUL OWNERS of this "territory" was originally the NATIVE AMERICANS!

~S.

[Winchester]

I think the problem in Northern Ireland is that the Catholic Church is the evil Whore of Babylon and organized religion only leads to violence, which is why God the Father should be tried for war crimes for coming up with Judaism. Obviously, if we all sat in our homes and personally interpreted the Bible, which, by the way fell from Heaven Itself typed and copyrighted, then we would all come to the same conclusions: namely that the Catholic Church is the Evil Whore of Babylon and all organized religions lead to violence and that Reverend Sun Myung Moon is Jesus returned to Earth.

I think there's also something about giving money to Jimmy Swaggert, but that part of my Bible caught fire when a picture of the Pope fell on it. He's evil, you know.

Hey Brucey, great thread.

[cmotherofpirl]

bad winchester.

[Ash Wednesday]

Is Reverend Moon the one that got a telephone call from Jesus?

[Winchester]

Stand not against my mockery!

[jasJis]

Essentially, this mirrors the situation here in the USA, in the states of California and Texas. There too, you have large numbers of immigrant and native Catholics who are agitating for a RETURN of California and Texas to Mexico.

Using culture and religion, they want to reverse history, and move a territory from it's rightful owners [however that happened] and affiliate with a majority Catholic nearby entity.

I wanted to stay away from this thread, since it hits painfully too close to the bone, having Irish Catholic blood and marrying non-Catholic British. Not something to be talked about with my Mason grandfather-in-law.

But Bruce might have a valid historical point here. Bruce, are you familiar with the execution of the American Catholics in the American Army (while on military campaign) in Mexico during the Mexican-American War that preceeded the Civil War?

[Bruce S]

But Bruce might have a valid historical point here. Bruce, are you familiar with the execution of the American Catholics in the American Army (while on military campaign) in Mexico during the Mexican-American War that preceeded the Civil War?

No. Have never heard that story told. Fill us in....

[jasJis]

No. Have never heard that story told. Fill us in....

Not a story. Read a history book.

The mostly Protestant American Army executed the American Catholic Servicemen that were in Mexico when they refused to fight when the war became a campaign to conquer Mexico City instead of response to the turmoil in Texas. The Catholics understood the war to become morally wrong and deserted to help defend the Mexican civilians and the Catholic. The Americans could not understand why Catholics got upset over the American Army using Catholic Churches as sniper posts and small artillery emplacements.

The point is, true reasons and motives of a conflict are rarely understood, especially during the conflict. Also, most people don't want to fairly look at history and be open to the justification of both sides.

Your post provides your nasty reasons for why the "other side" behaved (behaves) as they did (do). Posts like that perpetuate hate, because hate is nurished by the spring of falsehood.

[socalscout]

I still want to know about this secret annexation to Mexico. I guess I should brush up on my Spanish huh? Mas cerveza por favor para Bruce.