What's happening in Lebanon

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='stephen' post='1032891' date='Jul 28 2006, 11:57 AM']
So providing documentation and evidence which demonstrates the validity of my position is improper to you people?

In many cases the news articles speak for themselves and a brief comment is all that is needed. If you want further comments on, or explanations of what I've posted then make a reasonable, specific request.

And I hope that it will be will be taken into consideration that debating 7 or more people at a time who can't see the futility in defending barbarity which no properly catechized Catholic can support is not my primary focus here. I'm primarily concerned with bringing information and insight to American Catholics that they will not find in the US media, most notably the fact that fellow Catholics are suffering horribly because of this Israeli brutality and that the Israelis may very well succeed in further reducing the Christian presence in Lebanon just as they have in "Israel," and the Palestinian territories.
[/quote]
Fellow catholics are suffering horribly because their fellow countymen are members of Hezbollah who are intent on starting a war with Israel and the whole world. If they want it to stop, start removing or disabling the fanatics among them.

[stephen]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1033019' date='Jul 28 2006, 03:05 PM']
Fellow catholics are suffering horribly because their fellow countymen are members of Hezbollah ...[/quote]

So you're a fan of collective punishment then? Maybe you can provide some support from the Catholic catechism for this view. I haven't seen any.

No, Catholics are suffering in Lebanon because of the unwarranted Israeli attack on their country.



[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1033019' date='Jul 28 2006, 03:05 PM']... Hezbollah who are intent on starting a war with Israel and the whole world. [/quote]

I don't agree with this. I believe that it's Newt Gingrich and his fellow Zionist automatons along with the psychopathic evangelicals and Lubavitchers who are attempting to start a world war.

[url="http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,204164,00.html"]http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,204164,00.html[/url]


[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1033019' date='Jul 28 2006, 03:05 PM']If they want it to stop, start removing or disabling the fanatics among them.
[/quote]

This objection has been addressed already. I will clarify further.

The Israeli military occupied Lebanon for 22 years beginning in 1978 and ending in 2000.

Hezbollah was formed in 1982 in response to the brutal Israeli invasion and occupation of Lebanon.

Examples of the Israeli brutality which preceded the formation of Hezbollah include the June 1982 Israeli invasion in which 20,000 were killed in three months, the Aug. 12, 1982 massacre when the Israelis continuously pummeled Beirut for 11 hours using cluster bombs and white phosphorous shells and carpet bombed the Borj el Brajne Palestinian refugee camp, and the September 16th 1982 Sabra-Shatila refugee camp massacre in Lebanon--in which 2,750 including women and children were slaughtered--which was executed under the direction of that so-called "man of peace" Ariel Sharon.

Hezbollah was formed in response to these Israeli perpetrated atrocities and a great many others besides.

Now, Hezbollah was formed in 1982 and the Israeli occupation lasted from before that time until 2000. The Israeli military was not able to disarm Hezbollah in those 18 years even despite the unlimited military and intelligence resources at it's disposal, C/O the US taxpayer. The US media is parroting the Zionist lie that the Israelis left Lebanon in 2000 for some benevolent reason. The fact is that the Israelis could not beat Hezbollah and the occupation was too costly and unpopular to continue.

At this time, after failing to disarm Hezbollah after 18 years even despite it's unlimited resources, the Israelis declared that Lebanon, which was just beginning to recover from the repeated bombings and destruction caused by the Israelis, and who's military is pitiful, should disarm Hezbollah.

This is the same device that the Israelis have used in the Palestinian territories as well. They bomb their villages, bulldoze their homes, cut off their water and electricity, cut off funds and humanitarian aid, weaken their police forces and then tell them, "you have to disarm the terrorists!" And then their Zionist accomplices in the US media justify the Israelis' killing of civilians based on this idea that the Arabs won't disarm the militants when it is impossible for them to do so.

Given Hezbollah's ability to outlast the Israelis and make them end the occupation in 2000, many Lebanese view Hezbollah as liberators. The weak Lebanese military is incapable of defending Lebanon from the Israelis but Hezbollah has been able to at least give the Israeli military a difficult time. From the perspective of many Lebanese people, there must be some force in the area that is able to balance the US backed Israeli military behemoth. Whether they support Hezbollah fully in every regard or not, Hezbollah is the only force which has been such a balance and so it is the only option for preventing an unchallenged Israeli tyranny.

I would further point out that the Zionists have a history of forcing their neighbors to disarm and then massacring them as they did in 1982 after they made an agreement with the PLO to leave Lebanon assuring that civilians would be guaranteed safety then slaughtered the refugees in the Sabra-Shatila camp.

For those interested in further details:

[url="http://www.counterpunch.org/heller09212004.html"]http://www.counterpunch.org/heller09212004.html[/url]

Edited July 28, 2006 by stephen

[stephen]

It's often stated that by the talking heads of the US media that Lebanon must comply with UN resolution 1559 and disarm Hezbollah, which has already been shown to be virtually impossible for Lebanon to do. What is never mentioned, however, is that the Israelis are in violation of more UN resolutions than any other nation in the world which are well within their capability to comply with: particularly UN resolution 242 and 338 which deal with the Israelis' illegal and illegitimate occupation of Palestinian territory.

Just one more example of clownish Zionist hypocrisy.

[stephen]

To the people who's ethics have obviously been shaped more by the television than the teachings of the Catholic Church, I would state that if you support the Israeli policy of collective punishment, you have by that fact disqualified yourselves from taking the high ground in the debate.

If you believe that it's just that innocent civilians be punished for the crimes, whether they be real or imagined, of some organization in thier nation which they have no ability to control, then on what grounds can you condemn a terrorist organization that would target US or Israeli civilians based upon the crimes the US and "Israel" commits against their people? In fact, the US or Israeli citizen is much more culpable for the crimes of their governments that they pay taxes to than Lebanese citizens are for the actions of Hezbollah.

Is the US and the Zionist state "right" just because they have enough weapons to "prove" it?

It's reduced to "might makes right," the law of the jungle.

This is not Catholic thinking.

It's rabbinic thinking:

[url="http://www.thesanhedrin.org/en/legal/psak5766Sivan24b.html"]http://www.thesanhedrin.org/en/legal/psak5766Sivan24b.html[/url]

Edited July 28, 2006 by stephen

[KnightofChrist]

Take your twisted "truth" and hate filled heart some place else, your anti-semitic views are not wanted here.

[KnightofChrist]

Amazing how you sound so much like the Hitler like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and this is why no one in their right mind will believe you.

[quote]I am grateful to God for giving me the great pleasure of speaking at this very important gathering. I thank God for seeing the pious faces of you, the valiant, aware, God-fearing and selfless children of the revolution, who understand with vigilance and intelligence the most important issues of our times and are active with great zest and in a decisive way in the most central issues of the Islamic world. I thank God for the presence of you dear young people.

The real question is what is Zionism? No doubt there have been many discussions in this conference on this issue and you have made studies in this regard, and you may know what I want to emphasize, but it is something worth mentioning.

We must see what the real story of Palestine is. Is the conflict in Palestine a war between some Jews on the one side and Muslims and non-Jews on the other side? Is it a war between the Jews and other faiths? Is it the war of one country with other countries? Is it the war of one country with the Arab world? Is the conflict only over the limited lands of Palestine? I think the answer to all these questions is negative.

The creation of the regime occupying Al-Qods (Jerusalem) was a heavy move by the globally dominant system and Global Arrogance against the Islamic world. There is a historic battle going on between the Oppressor World and the Islamic world and the roots of this conflict goes back hundreds of years.

In this historic conflict, the fronts have shifted many times. There were times when the Muslims had the upper hand and were active and forward-moving, while the Oppressor World was on retreat.

Unfortunately, in the past three hundred years, the Islamic world has been on retreat in the face of the Oppressor World.

I do not intend to go to the roots of the issue and I concentrate on a historical review of the events. In the past one hundred years, the last trenches of the Islamic world fell and the Oppressor World created the regime occupying Al-Qods as the bridgehead for its domination of the Islamic world. Bridgehead is a military term in warfare. When two divisions or armies are fighting each other, if one side advances and breaks through the front and captures a piece of enemy territory and builds up fortifications and strengthens its hold to make it a base for further territorial expansion, then we call this a bridgehead.

The occupying state (Israel) is the bridgehead of the Oppressor World in the heart of the Islamic world. They have built a base to expand their domination to the entire Islamic world. There is no other raison d’etre for this entity without this objective.

The battle that is going on in Palestine today, therefore, is the frontline of the conflict between the Islamic world and the Oppressor World. It is a battle of destiny that will determine the fate of hundreds of years of conflict in Palestine.

Today, the Palestinian nation is fighting the Oppressor World on behalf of the Islamic umma (nation). Thank God, from the day the Palestinian nation moved towards an Islamic struggle with Islamic objectives and an Islamic environment, and made Islam the dominating force in its behaviour and orientation, we have been witnessing the progress and successes of the Palestinian nation every day.

I must say that you have chosen a very valuable title for your gathering [World Without Zionism]. Many are sowing the seeds of defeat and despair in this all-out war between the Islamic world and the Infidel Front, hoping to dishearten the Islamic world.

Such people are using words like “it’s not possible”. They say how could we have a world without America and Zionism? But you know well that this slogan and goal can be achieved and can definitely be realised”.

If we take a look back, we had in our country a regime that was very violent, anti-popular, dependent on foreigners, and armed to its teeth. Members of SAVAK [the Shah’s secret police] controlled every move and a terrible reign of terror existed.

But when the dear Imam [Ruhollah Khomeini] said this regime must be destroyed, and we want a world without a client state, many of those who claim to be political gurus and other things said it’s not possible. The day when the Imam started his move, all the powers of the world supported that corrupt regime. Even after the massacre of Black Friday, the West and the East and regional powers all supported the regime. But our nation fought and now for 27 years we have a government that is independent of America. The Imam said the domination of the East and the West must be destroyed, but weak-minded persons, who only see the little world around them, didn’t believe him…

Our dear Imam ordered that the occupying regime in Al-Qods be wiped off the face of the earth. This was a very wise statement. The issue of Palestine is not one on which we could make a piecemeal compromise… This would mean our defeat. Anyone who would recognize this state [Israel] has put his signature under the defeat of the Islamic world.

In his struggle against the World Arrogance, our dear Imam targeted the central and command base of the enemy, namely the occupying regime in Al-Qods. I have no doubt that the new wave that has started in dear Palestine and which we witness today all over the Islamic world will soon wipe this scourge of shame from the Islamic world. This can be done.

We have to watch out for conspiracies. For more than 50 years, the World Arrogance has tried to give recognition to the existence of this fake regime [Israel] and they have make many efforts to first stabilize it and then take further steps.

Some 27 or 28 years ago, they took an important step in this regard and, unfortunately, one of the frontline countries made this mistake, and we hope that country [Egypt] will rectify its mistake.

Recently, a new conspiracy has been plotted and is underway. They have been forced to evacuate a corner of Palestine and this was imposed on them by the Palestinian nation. But they want to sell this as the final victory and use the evacuation of Gaza and the creation of a Palestinian state as an excuse to end the Palestinian cause and goal.

Today they are making an evil and deceptive effort to turn the struggle into an internal conflict of the Islamic world. They want to create conflict among Palestinian groups inside Palestine by making them greedy for political positions or high office, so that these groups abandon the decisive issue fo Palestine and turn on each other.

With the excuse of having cleared the Gaza Strip to show their good will, they want a group of Muslim nations to recognise this corrupt regime, and I am very hopeful and pray to God that the Palestinian nation and the dear Palestinian groups will be cautious of such sedition.

Today the unity of the front in Palestine on its goals is a pressing necessity. The issue of Palestine is by no means finished. The issue of Palestine will only be resolved when all of Palestine comes under Palestinian rule, when all the refugees return to their homes, and when a popular government chosen by this nation takes the affairs in its hands. Of course, those who have come to this land from far away to plunder this land have no right to participate in the decision-making process for this nation.

I am hopeful that just as the Palestinian nation continued its struggle for the past ten years, it will continue to maintain its awareness and vigilance. This phase is going to be short-lived. If we put it behind us successfully, God willing, it will pave the way for the annihilation of the Zionist regime and it will be a downhill route.

I warn all the leaders in the Islamic world to beware of this conspiracy. If any of them takes a step towards the recognition of this regime [Israel], then he will burn in the fire of the Islamic umma (nation) and will have eternal shame stamped on his forehead, regardless of whether he did this under pressure by the dominant powers, or lack of understanding or naiveté or selfishness or worldly incentives.

The issue of Palestine is the issue of the Islamic world. Those who are closeted behind closed doors cannot make decisions on this issue and the Islamic nation does not allow this historical enemy to exist at the heart of the Islamic world.[/quote]

BTW do you believe the Holocaust happend or was that made up by the "Zionist"?

[hierochloe]

[quote name='stephen' post='1033088' date='Jul 28 2006, 03:36 PM']
... I would state that if you support the Israeli policy of collective punishment, you have by that fact disqualified yourselves from taking the high ground in the debate.
[/quote]"Punishment" is a misnomer of a sort when applied to civilian deaths inflicted by Israel in this conflict. Collateral damage is a much more accurate term IMHO. I'm not claiming Israel is innocent of mistakes, but it pales in comparison to Hizbollah's indiscriminate and [b][u]deliberate[/u] [/b] targeting of anyone and everybody south of the border, not to mention their blatant use of civilian meat shield strategies. The disparity of intentions is undeniable. As far as disparity of force, Israel is getting the job done instead of grab-a**ing around while Hizbollah rain rockets into their towns and make plans for their next kidnapping - I won't fault Israel for taking care of a problem.

Naturally it appears Israel had a plan for military operations in Lebanon. Only the most naive idiot on the planet would not have had a military plan in place (including necessary assets) for responding to agression from north of the Israeli border.

As to which side is innocent in this, the answer is none, as is usually the case. All war is an awful, terrible thing and the fault for it never lies on one side of the conflict. Yet if I were to have to gauge which side was the most just in their actions, I have to go with Israel hands down, no-brainer.

If the rest of the world wants Israel to stop, then they need to get up off their rears and get in there with boots on the ground and put a stop to hostilities from both sides by forcibly removing the threat on both sides. There's a reason why most UN resolutions amount to nothing more than a joke, whether it be Israel or the Lebanese gov't in violation. It's too much talk, not enough action. Had something significant been done by the international community to aid Lebanon in disarming Hizbollah, this likely never would have happened, even had Hizbollah still not disarmed at this time.

And Stephen, respectfully, I have to agree with KoC. I'm also sensing the delivery of your opinion on what should be the righteous Catholic view on the conflict to be laced with anti-semitic terms as if to hope to sway a pro-Christian mind. Anti-Christ Zionist state? Are you serious?

[KnightofChrist]

# Violence against Israel isn't terrorism!" -- Yasser Arafat

# "The goal of our struggle is the end of Israel, and there can be no compromises or mediators...We don't want peace – we want victory. Peace for us means Israel's destruction and nothing else." -- Yasser Arafat

# "...the personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew." -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

# "Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: 'by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

# "Jews have money and power, black people are the victims of the fact that Jews have money and power, and they are responsible for holding down black people." - Louis Farrakhan

# "Allah decreed that the Jews would be humiliated; he cursed them, and turned them into apes and pigs. Every time they ignite the fire of war, Allah extinguishes it. They disseminate corruption over the face of the earth, and fight the believers [i.e. the Muslims] only from fortified villages or from behind walls..."
-Dr. Al-Shwey'ir writes: (Al-Jazirah, June 7, 2002.)

# "I have been labeled ... a supporter of Hamas. We are all supporters of Hamas. I wish they added that I am also a supporter of Hezbollah."
-Abdulbrahman Alamoudi of the American Muslim Council

# "I am against America's interference in other countries' affairs and the establishment of American regimes against the will of these peoples. Let people decide for themselves. Why is American poking its nose in everything? ...This is the problem when a country thinks it's the only superpower. It pretends to be indispensable to the whole world. - Moammar Gadhafi (1994)

# "Israel would cease to exist within fifty years" and that the conflict between the Hebrew State and the Arab countries, "would not come to an end with the signing of peace agreements because we want all of Palestine and Jerusalem."
-Hussein Sheik Al-Islam, the Iranian Ambassador to Damascus

# "The great masses of the people... will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one." -Adolf Hitler

# “Here is America struck by God Almighty ... so that its greatest buildings are destroyed ... I swear to God that America will not live in peace before peace reigns in Palestine, and before the army of the infidels depart the land of Mohammed.”
-- Osama bin Laden, in a statement on October 7, 2001

# "There is not a single stone in Palestine that proves the [historical] Jewish existence [in the land]." -Sheikh Ikrama Sabri, Palestinian Authority appointed Mufti of Jerusalem

# "The withdrawal (of Jews from Gaza)...confirms the willingness, correctness and usefulness of employing an armed struggle and its ability to attain political objectives." - Dr. Mahmoud al-Zahar, Hamas leader

# "There is not a single stone in Palestine that proves the [historical] Jewish existence [in the land]." -Sheikh Ikrama Sabri, Palestinian Authority appointed Mufti of Jerusalem

# "The Oslo accord was a preface for the Palestinian Authority, and the Palestinian Authority will be a preface for the Palestinian state, which in turn will be a preface for the liberation of the entire Palestinian land." - Abdul Aziz Shaheen- Palestinian Authority Minister

# "The publication of these cartoons will cause the world to tremble. Fire will be throughout the world if they don't stop." -Dr Azam Tamimi, a senior figure in the Muslim Association of Britain

# "We succeeded, with Allah's grace, to raise an ideological generation that loves death like our enemies love life. We will not abandon the way of Jihad and Shahada [Martyrdom] as long as one inch of our holy land is in the hands of the Jews." -Video on Hamas website, December 12, 2005

# "Freedom is the other justification for the war in Iraq. The word 'freedom' appears 8 times in Bush"s speech, yet it is unclear what he meant by the word." - John Hickman, Associate Professor of Political Science, Berry College

# "It is very clear that Mr. Ahmadinejad was not making an anti-Semitic statement." -Imam Mohammed Ali Elahi, Regarding Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's recent call to wipe Israel off the map

# "The Palestinian nation is the strongest on earth... We [Muslims] have ruled the world and a day will come, by Allah, and we shall rule the world [again]. The day will come and we shall rule America. The day will come and we shall rule Britain." -Ibrahim Mudayris, PA TV, May 13, 2005

# "Have no mercy on the Jews, no matter where they are, in any country. Fight them, wherever you are. Wherever you meet them, kill them. Wherever you are, kill those Jews and those Americans who are like them - and those who stand by them - they are all in one trench, against the Arabs and the Muslims because they established Israel here, in the beating heart of the Arab world, in Palestine." -Dr. Ahmad Abu Halabiya, Member of the Palestinian Authority-appointed "Fatwa Council"

# "Gentle reader, do you know that Israel is engaged in ethnic cleansing in southern Lebanon?" -Paul Craig Roberts


Do these ppl sound like anybody we know?

Edited July 29, 2006 by KnightofChrist

[Lilllabettt]

A Psalm of Complaint

O Lord
Your mercy endures
And to Your chosen Nation
You are forever
True
So how come
In every generation
There still be
People
Who wanna
kill
all
the
Jews?
---------------------------

[Jeff]

"Dear God, next time please choose someone else."
-The Legend of Jewish Humor (Rex Bloomstein, 1990)

[phatcatholic]

regardless of your stance on the topic, this thread abandoned charity long ago.

this thread is closed.