RomeOPhobic

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1032184' date='Jul 27 2006, 05:34 PM']
Not all of Luther's points were Doctrinally wrong. What about selling indulgences? What about not disciplining corrupt bishops? You admit that Luther was right in many instances and led to needed reforms. But oh so slowly.
There is no need to foster a stereotype that non-Catholics are 'RomeOPhobic' for invalid reasons.
[/quote]
Luther was correct on much of the corruption, but these are not doctrinal matters. The Church is against his ideas of sola scriptura and sola fide.
I never said Protestants were Romeophobic, although I have encountered [i]some[/i] whose upbringing has led to them being wary of all things Catholic without ever truthfully investigating it.

[Anomaly]

Way to avoid the topic and purpose of the thread. It's not about Luther, but about legitimate reasons why some may fear or dislike Catholicism.

Unless you ascribe all Prots as idiots who wouldn't recognize grace if they were hit in the back of the head with it. LOL

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1032270' date='Jul 27 2006, 08:11 PM']
Way to avoid the topic and purpose of the thread. It's not about Luther, but about legitimate reasons why some may fear or dislike Catholicism.

Unless you ascribe all Prots as idiots who wouldn't recognize grace if they were hit in the back of the head with it. LOL
[/quote]
Can you clarify, please?

[Anomaly]

[quote name='thedude' post='1032272' date='Jul 27 2006, 06:13 PM']
Can you clarify, please?
[/quote]Why depend on me? Read the thread from the beginning, before it digressed.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

I just want to know if you have a problem with something I said or if you were talking to someone else. God bless!

[Justified Saint]

The thread's original provocation was as to why Protestants have a phobia of Rome and we are reminded that a phobia is a [u]an exaggerated usually inexplicable and illogical fear of a particular object, class of objects, or situation[/u]. Thus the topic of the thread has nothing to do with why Protestants have a "justifiable" or "legitimate" beef with Catholicism and those who have tried to "legitimatize" the fears of Protestants are in fact diverting the thread.

Yet, I enjoy digressions!

[jkaands]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1032121' date='Jul 27 2006, 02:08 PM']
Read books such as Foxes Book of Marytrs sometime. They liberally throw around words such as papists, popish, romanists, romish, etc. Clear prejudice.
[/quote]

Definitely prejudiced, but based on facts. The Protestants and RC's were to each other like the Sunnis and Shiites are today.

i don't want to go over a lot of disagreeable stuff, but the about 360 burnings of Mary I (Bloody Mary ) are well documented. The Pope excommunicated Elizabeth I and called for her assassination. Thus those bound to obey the pope, ie RC's, were considered very dangerous, and hence actively persecuted, especially as priests trained in France kept sneaking over. The vast majority of the English adored Elizabeth and had hated Mary and Phillip II of Spain, her husband, who later tried to invade England w/ the Armada, which was destroyed.

One poor RC martyr protested on the scaffold that he had been loyal to England save for being Catholic and loyal to Rome: someone shouted from the crowd, "In Rome all treason is contained!!" That was the feelling of the times. There was an active plot to assissinate Elizabeth, in which Mary Queen of Scots unwisely got involved and served as the rallying point; she paid for this treason with her head; others were not so lucky.

The Hutterites supported pacifism and adult baptism. They were no threat to anyone otherwise, but their leaders of the day felt that pacifism was very dangerous.

The persecutions of the Jews in Spain and the huge auto-da-fes are well documented. Thousands were killed; all were expelled, which, together with the expulsion of the Moors, led to the destruction of the Spanish economy. Many 'conversos' were hounded and spied upon until they, too, left Spain. The state of the Spanish universities, bereft of chairmen in any field except religion( because of the Inquisition), did not recover for several centuries.

Many priests were vicious anti-semites, among them St. Vincent (Vicente) de Ferrer. This is well documented in histories of the Jewish persecution and expulsion from Spain and the Jews fleeing to Mexico and then to New Mexico, where I live. All of this history is a big topic here, documented by bilungual historians who study original documents in Madrid, Mexico City, and Santa Fe, the capitol of New Mexico.

There are lots of books on all of these interesting but horrible subjects written by scholars not affiliated with any of the parties, churches or descendants, and gobs of reliable information on the web.

Signing off.

[jkaands]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1032121' date='Jul 27 2006, 02:08 PM']
Read books such as Foxes Book of Marytrs sometime. They liberally throw around words such as papists, popish, romanists, romish, etc. Clear prejudice.
[/quote]

Definitely prejudiced, but based on facts. The Protestants and RC's were to each other like the Sunnis and Shiites are today.

i don't want to go over a lot of disagreeable stuff, but the about 360 burnings of Mary I (Bloody Mary ) are well documented. The Pope excommunicated Elizabeth I and called for her assassination. Thus those bound to obey the pope, ie RC's, were considered very dangerous, and hence actively persecuted, especially as priests trained in France kept sneaking over. The vast majority of the English adored Elizabeth and had hated Mary and Phillip II of Spain, her husband, who later tried to invade England w/ the Armada, which was destroyed.

One poor RC martyr protested on the scaffold that he had been loyal to England save for being Catholic and loyal to Rome: someone shouted from the crowd, "In Rome all treason is contained!!" That was the feelling of the times. There was an active plot to assissinate Elizabeth, in which Mary Queen of Scots unwisely got involved and served as the rallying point; she paid for this treason with her head; others were not so lucky.

The Hutterites supported pacifism and adult baptism. They were no threat to anyone otherwise, but their leaders of the day felt that pacifism was very dangerous.

The persecutions of the Jews in Spain and the huge auto-da-fes are well documented. Thousands were killed; all were expelled, which, together with the expulsion of the Moors, led to the destruction of the Spanish economy. Many 'conversos' were hounded and spied upon until they, too, left Spain. The state of the Spanish universities, bereft of chairmen in any field except religion( because of the Inquisition), did not recover for several centuries.

Many priests were vicious anti-semites, among them St. Vincent (Vicente) de Ferrer. This is well documented in histories of the Jewish persecution and expulsion from Spain and the Jews fleeing to Mexico and then to New Mexico, where I live. All of this history is a big topic here, documented by bilungual historians who study original documents in Madrid, Mexico City, and Santa Fe, the capitol of New Mexico.

There are lots of books on all of these interesting but horrible subjects written by scholars not affiliated with any of the parties, churches or descendants, and gobs of reliable information on the web.

Signing off.

[Justified Saint]

[quote name='jkaands' post='1032614' date='Jul 27 2006, 09:04 PM']
Definitely prejudiced, but based on facts. The Protestants and RC's were to each other like the Sunnis and Shiites are today.
The persecutions of the Jews in Spain and the huge auto-da-fes are well documented. Thousands were killed; all were expelled, which, together with the expulsion of the Moors, led to the destruction of the Spanish economy. Many 'conversos' were hounded and spied upon until they, too, left Spain. The state of the Spanish universities, bereft of chairmen in any field except religion( because of the Inquisition), did not recover for several centuries.

Many priests were vicious anti-semites, among them St. Vincent (Vicente) de Ferrer. This is well documented in histories of the Jewish persecution and expulsion from Spain and the Jews fleeing to Mexico and then to New Mexico, where I live. All of this history is a big topic here, documented by bilungual historians who study original documents in Madrid, Mexico City, and Santa Fe, the capitol of New Mexico.

There are lots of books on all of these interesting but horrible subjects written by scholars not affiliated with any of the parties, churches or descendants, and gobs of reliable information on the web.

Signing off.
[/quote]

Your comments are highly speculative and suggest a kind of uniformity of scholarship on the matter which simply does not exist. The cultural impact of the Inquistion is a very unclear one and a most difficult link to prove simply because of the long history of the Inqusition in Spain. Many library catalogues in both Spain and the Americas contain several books on the Forbidden Index suggesting that the Index was often lightly enforced. Yet, this could all very well be meaningless since quantitative data is not the measure of cultural history. Certainly Spain suffered in the sciences though it excelled in other areas like literature and the arts. In any case, attributing any single factor to a large scale and lengthly cultural phenomena is fraught with many difficulties.

It is also erroneous to say that the Jewish expulsion wrecked the Spanish economy since the Jews constituted such a small portion of the population. Though its most intense periods dealt with the "converso meance", these periods occupy a very short time frame in the Inquisition's long history.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Justified Saint' post='1032658' date='Jul 27 2006, 10:44 PM']
Your comments are highly speculative and suggest a kind of uniformity of scholarship on the matter which simply does not exist. The cultural impact of the Inquistion is a very unclear one and a most difficult link to prove simply because of the long history of the Inqusition in Spain. Many library catalogues in both Spain and the Americas contain several books on the Forbidden Index suggesting that the Index was often lightly enforced. Yet, this could all very well be meaningless since quantitative data is not the measure of cultural history. Certainly Spain suffered in the sciences though it excelled in other areas like literature and the arts. In any case, attributing any single factor to a large scale and lengthly cultural phenomena is fraught with many difficulties.

It is also erroneous to say that the Jewish expulsion wrecked the Spanish economy since the Jews constituted such a small portion of the population. Though its most intense periods dealt with the "converso meance", these periods occupy a very short time frame in the Inquisition's long history.
[/quote]
Super! Yeah, they just killed my great uncle, not my entire great uncles family. Nothing to put an shadow on the face of the catholic church.

Yep. Cardinal Law was my neighbor. He never molested me. The Catholics are still perfect.

[Era Might]

Cardinal Law never molested anyone.

That sure came out of left field.

[mariahLVzJP2]

[quote name='LSW' post='1032074' date='Jul 27 2006, 01:56 PM']
No one has ever "glossed" over the bad Popes, Priests, ect. I have, and many other Catholics on this forum, have admitted that some in the Church have committed grave sins in the past against others. In fact I stay away from using this ridiculous argument against Protestants because its counter productive and it cuts both ways. Protestants love to argue like this because they think this is a good reason not to be Catholic. Well if that's the case then I won't ever be Protestant because of all the bad stuff that some Protestants have done in the past to Catholics and others. See how dumb this is?

Futhermore, Pope john Paul II has apologized many times during his Pontificate on behalf of members of the Church that have acted less than Christian in the past against others. I'm still waiting for a Minister, Rabbi, Imam to step up to the plate and do the same.
[/quote]

[pyranima]

[quote name='jkaands' post='1030863' date='Jul 25 2006, 09:18 PM']
It hasn't been BRED into them--they have good reason to fear. Many Protestants were burnt at the stake by Roman Catholics. "Heretics" of all kinds all over Europe: Albigensians in the south of France ("Burn them all-God will seek out His own"), over 350 Protestants burnt by Bloody Mary in England, Calvinists, Lutherans in Europe and Jews in Spain, Jews in MEXICO CITY. Jewish Spaniards, the crypto-Jews, fled Spain to Mexico ahead of the Inquisition and into New Mexico from Mexico City when the Inquisition started burning Jews there. There are descendants of those crypto-Jews in New Mexico who have re-discovered their Jewish roots and, long converted to Catholicism, have converted back to Judaism. The Hutterites vividly remember their tortures and burnings by Catholics, immortalized by engravings which I have seen--horrible--

Fear dies hard. The Inquisition and Bloody Mary are still remembered and will be for a long time. Like the Nazis and the Holocaust will be remembered for many hundreds of years.

Protestants have good reason to be afraid of anyone who will assault their freedom of religion, guaranteed under the Constitution of the United States, which was written by former English who vividly remembered the horrors of European Catholicism. I fear it too, and will fight any assault upon the Constitution.
[/quote]
Protestantism is a deformation of Christianity. but to counter your point Calvin and Luther were not any better, both sides have blood on their hands just look at Henery the 8th look at luther, look at Calvin or zwingly or any of the reformers they killed eachother they killed Catholics and Catholics killed them. and i cant say that i disagree with it either, think about it for a moment, these Heretics (and that word depends on which side your on im not using it exclusivly for Catholics or Protestants) are endagering souls. not just 1 or 2 but thousands and millions of souls. we are talking about peoples eternal salvation, Just as America must defend itself against terrorists, so Christianity (notice i said Christianity and not the church though they are one in the same i will leave that word open for which ever side to consider) must also protect the Faithful against Spiritual terrorists. Point at the Catholic Church and saying "See they killed X number of people" is not only ignorant of history but out right ignorance. the Church did not kill anyone Leaders of Countries saw that the fundamental prinicple of their coutries structer were under attack and they reacted. if what they did was right or wrong can be argued, however it is foolish to ignore the fact that Protestants have just as much blood on their hands. to say the Catholic Church is opposed to freedom of Religion is ignorant, in fact coersion is condemned by the Catholic Church. there are "Horrors" commited by both Catholics and Protestants to take and point out 1 bad apple and use that as the bar to which you gauge any religion is muleish. I can point out a list of bad protestants in any denomination.

Protestants Forsake Peter because of Judas, and in forsaking Peter they forsake Christ because Christ gave Authority to Peter. to argue that Peter is not the rock in Matt 16:18 is not only bad scholarship but bigotry and out right stupidity. many, and i do mean many Protestant scholars have conceded that Peter is the rock, the Greek points it out, the Aramaic points it out, even the English points it out if you look close enough (study the name Peter and look at the context of what is said). your RomeOPhobic comments are baseless, you are simply an antiCatholic, the Church wants all People to come to Christ and embrace the fullness of truth. Just as ANY Christian or for that matter anyone of any religion does or should want. if you have the Truth you should want other people to have it too, however the Church does not MAKE anyone become Catholic and to do so is agains the Catholic Faith and has ALWAY been agains the Catholic Faith. The question of the things or what individual countries did is not related to the Church, the Church did tell those countries that they have a right (which all countries do) to defend theirself and their people. Protestantism coming into a Catholic country was the equivalent of Communism coming to America, was what America did in the Red scare ethical or right? that is up for debate, that we had a right to defend ourself against an invading force is not.

[quote name='jkaands' post='1032052' date='Jul 27 2006, 12:24 PM']
Why do Cathos gloss over the 'bad' Popes, Bishops, and Priests and allow them human foibles, but everything that Luther had to say is discounted?
Amen, Anomaly.

good show!
[/quote]
and how do you know about these bad Popes? oh yes that is right because the Catholic Church rather than hiding them says "yes we had bad popes but show me where they taught error in faith or morals?" nobody glosses over them, they are there, we know they are there. we say "yes bad popes yes bad bishops, yes bad protestant pastors" but we also say that if Bad popes and Bad Bishops cannot destroy the Church or the teachings of Christ then who can?

[pyranima]

[quote name='desertwoman' post='1031866' date='Jul 27 2006, 07:47 AM']
As a protestant, it was from reading jack chick tracks and other things from people who had an agenda against the Catholic Church.

My father has a probelm with the veneration of Mary, and I still have problems with this as well for we believe that only Jesus is to be lifted up and no one else.
[/quote]going to Jack Chich on information on the Catholic Church is like going to a budhist about mormonism. i can point out errors and errors about what he says. Jesus himself lifts up the Saints in Rev. we do not lift Mary up above Jesus, but we do bless what God has Blessed (and the bible says Mary is blessed). the bible says "All generations will call me blessed" why would all generations call her blessed? isnt calling her blessed lifting her up?

We Lift Mary up TO God and say "Look how merciful you are O Great God, How Merciful you are." anyone who lifts Mary up commits an offense against the 1st commandment and they make Mary a goddess and commit idolitry, anyone who lifts Mary up TO God, is Praising and Worshiping God saying "Look at the fruit of you labor". as we Lift Christ up to the Father so we lift Mary up to Christ WITH this exception, Mary is not Divine. We lift Christ up to God as both Divine and Human, we lift Mary up to Christ as Human. we do not offer Masses up to Mary (condemned by the Church), we only offer Masses up to God the Father (first person of the Blessed Trinity), in which we are offering the Son to the Father through the Holy Spirit. The Mass is the Center of True Catholic living, its like water or air. you can be Catholic and never say a single Prayer to Mary, or any of the Saints.

[Budge]

Wasnt bred into me, I grew up literally surrounded by Catholicism, lived across the street from a Catholic church, had nuns for friends, hanging out at the convent, mothers best friend was a nun for 23 years and visited us constantly. One reason I warn about Catholicism and the false teachings of its leaders, is because there are millions of nice people being led down a false path who deserve to know the truth same as me.

The Vatican is NOT your friend. American Catholics will be suffering along with everyone else, when the American middle class is decimated, and the power of the United Nations and world government grows. Rome will even sacrifice its own people [what is happening in China right now as the Vatican makes friendly with the Commie Church] for its geo-political goals.