Church History And Authority

[Bruce S]

Like I said.

You are perfectly entitled to believe that. I accept and honor your belief.

I just wanted to make the obvious point, that other CHRISTIANS don't agree.

So they either HAVE salvation, in REJECTION of the Catholic Church, or they do not.

I submit that the Catholic Church is talking out of both sides of their mouth on this one. They grant salvation to outsiders in some statements, and in others, with binding authority say that those REJECTING knowingly, some of the Catholic Church system are ANATHEMIZED, that is consigned to exclusion from the Catholic Church and if you follow the program of salvation contained within the Catholic Church believe system, you cannot partake of the very needed sacrements, and without them, you cannot be assured of salvation.

Am I getting this one right?

[jasJis]

Am I getting this one right?

As usual.

No. :sadder:

Edited January 7, 2004 by jasJis

[cmotherofpirl]

See Phillipians Ch 1:1. Why was a book of the bible written for DEAD people to read? Perhaps the "SAINTS" are the true believers of the gospel of Jesus! No way! Only the pope can declare who are true saints! Any one who believes the truth of the gospel is a heretic. I know because I have been personally accused by the children that control this site of running from unconfessed sin. Tell me that that is a Christian attitude. Luther was a true believer in the "ORIGINAL" catholic church but was excommunicated because he saw the distortion from the original truth. He was not totally right but he was not allowed to express his opinion. Has anything changed? NO WAY. To learn true church history is to realise why Luther and those that followed refused to accept the distortion from the original truth and attempted to return to the original commands of Jesus. To learn history is to understand why Protestantism was necessary to restore the TRUTH. I await the attacks that this statement of fact will obviously attract by the insecure members of this site but have no intention of responding. I am UNSHACKLED and loved by God. If you do not agree with me then I suggest that you pray about it but be honestly open to hear God's response.

Maybe you show make "truth" plural, since you have so many competing varieties of it.

If you have no intention of responding, bye. have a nice day. :)

[Unshackled]

Maybe you show make "truth" plural, since you have so many competing varieties of it.

If you have no intention of responding, bye. have a nice day.

No point in responding is there? I was taught as a Roman Catholic that Protestants are wrong but unfortunately the Bible does not agree with this teaching. Once again I have made the mistake of stating the obvious and therefore will be attacked. Oh well, silly me! Why do I bother? :leave:

[jasJis]

No point in responding is there? I was taught as a Roman Catholic that Protestants are wrong but unfortunately the Bible does not agree with this teaching. Once again I have made the mistake of stating the obvious and therefore will be attacked. Oh well, silly me! Why do I bother? :leave:

I was taught as a Roman Catholic that Protestants are wrong

You were either taught wrong or misunderstood. My guess is you misunderstood. Don't be offended. I misunderstood much of my 12 years of Catholic education as well. Protestants are wrong about some things and right about others. They are not completely devoid of any TRUTH so of course they can't be all wrong. It's mostly a Protestant thing that Catholics get the idea that the Catholic Church teaches Protestants are ALL WRONG. If that was true, Catholics would not call them Christians.

Put the shoe on the other foot. Most Protestants have the belief Catholics aren't Christian. They're like many Catholics. They misunderstand what TRUTHS exist in their own denomination.

Why do I bother? :leave:

Ooo. Ooo. :wavey: I know why. Grace moves you. ;)

[Mary's Knight, La]

couple of things here, when you read saints in the bible from what i understand you could just as accurately read it holy ones, including living and dead. however 98% of the time (maybe more) when we use saints we're referring to those who we have good reason to believe now reside in Heaven and see God face to face. your finding the word saint in the bible doesn't really work cuz they're using the closest english word for the closest latin word for (probably) the closest greek word.

this is what we have been saying all along on the question of authority and the bible, the authority of the magisterium springs from the Bible, when you use Tradition (sacred tradition not local custom) to interpret what the original author was saying. Cuz when the inspired Word of God was written down. it was never intended for any of it's parts to be taken to mean anything other than what the authors (both human and divine) meant to communicate. so you can't just say bible alone and i'll interpret it "how I want" (though most protestants i know pronounce that last bit "how the Spirit guides me" it's been my experience that from certain mouths the two are the same thing)

now just to clear up something simple that always gets distorted whenever mud gets slung at us. Tradition (sacred tradition) is simply what the church has always believed. so we can look at the Bible and then look at tradition to see how the church has always interpreted it. We can look at Mary and see what the church has always believed about her role in God's plan. see all our beliefs are checked by the standard of the Bible according to the author's original intent, which is the strongest and best acid test for any christian. Just to stop you using bible quotes against tradition in the original language the word for traditions and the word for teachings was the same. thus in the NT when you read hold fast to the teachings we have given, you could just the same read hold fast to the tradition we have given.

Luther was not excommunicated for seeing the "original" church. He was excommunicated because he wanted to amputate some of the beliefs of the original church.

[Circle_Master]

this is what we have been saying all along on the question of authority and the bible, the authority of the magisterium springs from the Bible, when you use Tradition (sacred tradition not local custom) to interpret what the original author was saying. Cuz when the inspired Word of God was written down. it was never intended for any of it's parts to be taken to mean anything other than what the authors (both human and divine) meant to communicate. so you can't just say bible alone and i'll interpret it "how I want" (though most protestants i know pronounce that last bit "how the Spirit guides me" it's been my experience that from certain mouths the two are the same thing)

The is not how protestants interpret the bible. A good chunk of the laypeople do - especially those influenced by postmodernistic culture, but not by any, nor is that process taught at any seminary. One is taught exactly that - to figure out what the original author meant to communicate. "how the Spirit guides me" is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard and I always destroy someone if they say that is how they interpret the Bible. So make sure you understand now - that is not how protestants interpret the Bible. We use the science of hermeneutics and exegesis.

now just to clear up something simple that always gets distorted whenever mud gets slung at us. Tradition (sacred tradition) is simply what the church has always believed. so we can look at the Bible and then look at tradition to see how the church has always interpreted it. We can look at Mary and see what the church has always believed about her role in God's plan. see all our beliefs are checked by the standard of the Bible according to the author's original intent, which is the strongest and best acid test for any christian. Just to stop you using bible quotes against tradition in the original language the word for traditions and the word for teachings was the same. thus in the NT when you read hold fast to the teachings we have given, you could just the same read hold fast to the tradition we have given.

You can see all of your beliefs checked against the Bible according to the authors intent? That is interesting as most protestant scholars do just that and come up with different interpretations - and we do it for the truth as well! Catholic scholars do it with the mindset they must find out how it supports the CC. (do not even deny this - i see it in all of your arguments with Scripture - you will not even consider you might have a bad interpretation - protestants do). I would have to ask you as well - have you done intensive studies through Scripture and context, taking the books as whole units? Studying theology intensely for what it says and seeing if that allows for purgatory? or for a treasury of merit? or for a sacramental system? or for a human to be born not under the bondage of adams inherited sin?