Confirmation and Betrothal

[Aloysius]

so I think that, since confirmation is the absolute most important decision anyone ever makes in their life, they should not get to choose it until they have made their second most important decision in life-- their vocation.

here's my plan.. tell me if you think it's ok...

I require my kids to, upon their confirmation, also either have a betrothal, be accepted into a seminary, or be accepted into a religious order, or make a vow to remain single their entire life. it doesn't matter how old it takes them to settle this, but it would make sense.

now the confirmation has to predate each one of these things, but upon confirmation one of these things should be planned... maybe to even occur on the same day (speaking of betrothal ceremonies, of course)

what say you? i think it makes sense, and would make confirmation more of a big deal.

[Lilllabettt]

Interesting.

Confirmation gives us the grace to fully embrace whatever vocation it is we are meant to have in life, so in that way, your plan makes a lot of sense.

On the other hand, the grace we get from Confirmation is a huge help in discerning what vocation you are meant to have. (This was the case with me, in a big way.) Obviously, you can't embrace a vocation you haven't first discerned.

[Laudate_Dominum]

you rock dude. next time I'm at St. Boniface let's copy chesterton and belloc and talk about things catholic over beer and pipes.

[Era Might]

Confirmation gives you graces to discern your vocation. God doesn't rush himself in telling us what he has in store. I wouldn't presume to rush him.

ps: Babies should be baptized, confirmed, and given First Holy Communion all at the same time. Bring back tradition! :

[azaelia]

What about in Dioceses where the age for Confirmation is 7?

[Aloysius]

well, every particular vocational thing I mentioned is get-out-able, and in many ways people say they are right there at the beginning of discernment... entering a seminary or living with a religious order or getting betrothed. of course, we would be limiting them in that they would never be able to marry any direct relatives of the person they were betrothed to

this order of things kind of solves the problem I see of #1 pushing back vocations far too much in life and #2 getting confirmed before you're even ready. it's sort of a meet in the middle thing which, in and of itself, does not mean anything about rushing. if they're not going to begin seriously discerning their vocation until they're 25 yrs old then fine, then they don't get confirmed until they're 25.

I'm sure everyone who knows me realized that my sinister intention is to start the beginnings of serious vocational discernment earlier while at the same time pushing confirmation back.

[quote name='azaelia' post='1027325' date='Jul 19 2006, 06:12 PM']
What about in Dioceses where the age for Confirmation is 7?
[/quote]
I don't like that at all... and I don't think it's mandatory at young ages anywhere. I believe there are minimum ages, but no maximum ages that I'm aware of.

[Norseman82]

What about people who don't find "that special someone" until later in life, especially in today's climate?

[Birgitta Noel]

IMHO That's pretty bizarre.

Do you have some teachings or whatnot to back up your idea? Confirmation is not graduation so I'm not sure where this is coming from.

Or perhaps I should ask what your view of Conf. is that's leading you to this suggestion...

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1027336' date='Jul 19 2006, 04:52 PM']
What about people who don't find "that special someone" until later in life, especially in today's climate?
[/quote]
We can take it a step further and promote a culture of arranged marriages. Parents can pick a spouse for their child at any point in their childhood. Some people may even be betrothed in infancy. That'd be slick.

Yes, I'm kidding. But it's a funny thing to think about considering this is the way things have been done in the past.

[Aloysius]

and it really puts into perspective all the nonsense of finding the "only special person" out there for you. any man and any woman have the capacity to grow together in a successful marriage, it is a matter of strong Christian virtue and redeemed human free will.

that is the way things were done in the past, and in many ways we can see that worked way better than the way things are done now. I think this presents the possibility of a direction we could head in the future to restore some of the goodness of the way things worked in the past without necessarily backtracking.

to The Little Way: you'll find most of my ideas are bizzare... haha. but confirmation is the sacrament where you make the decision to enter into the Church as an adult-- where it ought to be fully your decision to accept the baptism that was not necessarily your decision. that is the most important decision any Christian can ever make, and I submit that if one is not prepared to make some other decisions which are less important than that, then one may not be prepared for that decision either. it's not something necessitated by the teaching of the Church... but its something I think might be a wise direction in light of tradition and history.

confirmation is supposed to be one's individual decision making them an adult in the Church and conferring upon them all the graces needed to face adult life in the Church. the way it's done now the families pressure the kids into it before the kids are of age to really be able to make a decision against their parents wishes without dire consequences. if they are making that decision at the same point they are making their decision for their vocation in life, there is no longer lorded over them the pressures of the parent and thus it is more certain that it becomes their decision.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

I disagree... I dislike the notion that Confirmation "makes one an adult" in the faith. This is false and completely beside the point of the Sacrament itself--which is the gifts of the Holy Spirit. In my opinion, we ought to be Confirming kids before we welcome them to the Lord's Table in their First Communion. (most of the kids (7th graders) I teach for CCD definitely need the grace of Confirmation before they enter High School)

I also dislike the notion that Confirmation is somehow a proclamation of the child's personal acceptance of the faith their parent's claimed for them in their baptism. While this may also be true for those who are Confirmed and can make the decision for themselves; this seems to be an anti-Catholic view of the Sacraments. God's grace is not dependent upon our understanding-- it is not dependent upon anything we can 'do', but freely flows through His Sacraments. The point of the Sacrament is not public ceramony/confession, but grace and the Gifts of the Spirit.

If/When I get married and have children, they will Confirmed shortly after Baptism. God knows they'll need the grace of Confirmation a heck of a lot earlier than 13 or 14.

Edited July 20, 2006 by Fides_et_Ratio

[Norseman82]

And how many arranged marriages are abusive? I really don't trust some parents - especially those who are alcohol/substance abusers or who are having a horrible menopause - to look out for the best interests of the child.

Al, I understand what you are saying about kids getting confirmed only because parents or other family members pressure them, but please keep in mind that in the Eastern Orthodox (and possibly the Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church), infants are confirmed and receive their first Communion at the same time they are baptized.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' post='1027411' date='Jul 19 2006, 10:26 PM']If/When I get married and have children, they will Confirmed shortly after Baptism. God knows they'll need the grace of Confirmation a heck of a lot earlier than 13 or 14.
[/quote]
Can a parent decide when to have them confirmed? I thought that was governed by the diocese. I know in the East they confirm at Baptism.

[Aloysius]

I believe there is a minimum age governed by dioceses, meaning in most dioceses you can't get it "shortly after baptism"

I am discussing the sacrament as it is understood in the Roman Rite of the Church, i.e. the way it should be done in the Roman Rite unless you're going to switch rites. Yes, the main point is the grace of the sacrament, and that is not contingent upon the personal decision of the child. But in the Latin Tradition this is another dimension we include regarding this sacrament-- that the child now chooses to receive or not to receive this sacrament. in the Roman rite, unlike the eastern rites, this sacrament is in many ways very similar to matrimony or holy orders-- you prepare, get properly disposed, make the decision whether or not to receive the sacrament, and once you have received it you obtain a different "status" in the Church. this is the structure of confirmation in the Roman Rite.

confirmation is a sacrament that dispenses numerous graces even if the child is pressured into receiving it, but the normative preference in the Roman rite is that the child, upon confirmation, decide for himself to accept the gift of the Catholic Faith his parents gave him at baptism.

How many arranged marriages were abusive? Hard to answer, they didn't have accurate polling back then. But I believe modern polling of asiatic cultures that still do arranged marriages show that they tend to be very very healthy, contrary to the popular media culture in which every arranged marriage is something the kids must get out of to be "true to their hearts". arranged marriages were in place during the most stable and Christian times in western culture.

[batteddy]

[quote]confirmation is supposed to be one's individual decision making them an adult in the Church and conferring upon them all the graces needed to face adult life in the Church. [/quote]

I don't think so. Although this is a dimension that is added in the western rite, at least unofficially...it is really a sacrament that works ex opere operato, whether one accepts the Faith personally or not. That is why in the east babies are chrismated right after their baptized. It is not a graduation or a "Catholic bar mitzvah"...

I also think that putting it with vocation decision would make it less special because then it is "tied" to something else. Like first reconcilliation with first communion (but confession isn't supposed to be that happy or special, because it is about the shame of sin). If we seperate them all, each one can be special and reflected on individually.

But I do not think that we need to put confirmation before communion, or make confirmation at baptism like in the east, as I believe there is a trinitarian symbolism in our current order:

You become a child of the Father in baptism
Recieve the Son in communion
And the Holy Spirit in Confirmation...