In Defense Of Catholics

[Paladin D]

the enemy is Satan and his minions [and for now, it would seem Islam] more than each other.

Shame we have no pagans here or Muslims.

I suspect we would suddenly be allied IMMEDIATELY if there were....

Allah Akbar!

They pray five times a day, one thing they got right.

From what I know, we do have 2 Wiccans and a Muslim that visit these phorums time to time.

[Bruce S]

It is a mistake to think that Jesus is the common denominator and that our differences don't make any difference -- that all we need is Jesus. But which Jesus do we need, the Catholic Jesus or the Protestant Jesus? They are very different, and concepts of the Savior differ among Protestant denominations.

Errr....Likos

Now there are more than ONE Y'shua/Yeshua/Jesus/Ieosus?

Are the Jews right on this one, are we Polytheistic?

Man. You can't even keep a thread where people are agreeing with you nice.

I guess now we, the Protestant's, have to start DEFENDING the Mormon's too?

Are you lumping us in with the JW's, and other non Trinitarians now?

Peace bro.

Did you say a Rosary for us yet?

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

This thread is.................

amesome.

[phatcatholic]

Jesus cares, since He appointed St. Peter as head of His Church, the #l Father. Jesus obviously considered the position as head of the Church important. Bruse S considers it unimportant. And there have been 265 successors to Peter who have served as Pope in the last 2,000 years. It's an insult to the Catholic faith to say "who cares if there is a crappy pope, good pope, or NO pope." Jesus appointed Peter (and by extension, his successors) as Pope (head Papa). But that means nothing, Bruse S says, because "Jesus changed our hearts." Yes, but he didn't abrogate His revelation, which He became Incarnate to teach us. The Pope is the infallible teacher of faith and morals. Here's where questions in dispute are answered. The Pope speaks for Christ on this Earth.

It is a mistake to think that Jesus is the common denominator and that our differences don't make any difference -- that all we need is Jesus. But which Jesus do we need, the Catholic Jesus or the Protestant Jesus? They are very different, and concepts of the Savior differ among Protestant denominations.

Bruse S would have us believe that all denominations are equal, and would include the Catholic Church in the same category. And it makes no difference what one believes. This is relativism, which JPII has condemned.

This idea trivializes the Incarnation. Jesus didn't come to make us feel all good inside: He came to redeem us. He came to teach the TRUTH. Jesus founded ONE CHURCH. He lived, taught, and died for ONE FAITH. That Faith is the Catholic Faith. Jesus is more than an amorphous, one-size-fits-all conveyor of warm fuzzies.

We may be able to picket abortuaries together with some Protestants, but others approve abortion (some Lutherans, some Presbyterian denominations, for example).

And the list of our differences -- doctrinal and moral -- is lengthy.

If Bruse S wants to apologize for his abhorrent behavior toward Catholics in the past on this phorum, good.

But as for this "togetherness" Bruse S proposes, I'll be an observer. As Shakespeare said, "That one may smile, and smile, and be a villain–" (Hamlet 1.5.113)

JMJ Likos

likos,

i think there's a time and a place, bro. no one is saying that you should abandon your beliefs for the sake of ecumenism. but, this was a momentous thread in which bruce attempted honest charity. despite how lacking it may appear in your eyes, i feel like it is our duty as catholics to be thankful for the charity he was able to show. i would imagine w/ his history, and the heated debates, and the occasional snide remark, that such a post may have even been hard for him to make. he even prayed about us in church today.

do i disagree w/ some of the statements he made in his post? of course. but, considering the attempt Bruce made here to get along w/ us, i don't consider this thread the place to point out those things. i would instead rather be thankful and hope that this thread could somehow lead to more congenial relations between bruce and the rest of the catholics here.

bruce, remember the strides that you have made in this post, and the revelations that you came to in church today. don't forget them. let them be your guide when you are tempted in the future to give the occasional jab or low blow at the catholics here (even humor can be caustic on occasion).

likos...........time and a place, bro

pax christi,

phatcatholic

[phatcatholic]

oops, double post

[Katholikos]

Errr....Likos

Now there are more than ONE Y'shua/Yeshua/Jesus/Ieosus?

Are the Jews right on this one, are we Polytheistic?

Man. You can't even keep a thread where people are agreeing with you nice.

I guess now we, the Protestant's, have to start DEFENDING the Mormon's too?

Are you lumping us in with the JW's, and other non Trinitarians now?

Peace bro.

Did you say a Rosary for us yet?

Just as I suspected, you can't give up the personal insults, can you Bruse S? Your "conversion" to civility was short lived and insincere.

I said what I said, very clearly. I didn't say that there is more than one Jesus. I said that there are many different concepts of Jesus among Protestant denominations.

I also said you insulted the Catholic Church while pretending to be a nice guy.

You twist my words and the words of others -- as well as scripture -- to your own destruction.

JMJ Likos

[Katholikos]

likos,

i think there's a time and a place, bro. no one is saying that you should abandon your beliefs for the sake of ecumenism. but, this was a momentous thread in which bruce attempted honest charity. despite how lacking it may appear in your eyes, i feel like it is our duty as catholics to be thankful for the charity he was able to show. i would imagine w/ his history, and the heated debates, and the occasional snide remark, that such a post may have even been hard for him to make. he even prayed about us in church today.

do i disagree w/ some of the statements he made in his post? of course. but, considering the attempt Bruce made here to get along w/ us, i don't consider this thread the place to point out those things. i would instead rather be thankful and hope that this thread could somehow lead to more congenial relations between bruce and the rest of the catholics here.

bruce, remember the strides that you have made in this post, and the revelations that you came to in church today. don't forget them. let them be your guide when you are tempted in the future to give the occasional jab or low blow at the catholics here (even humor can be caustic on occasion).

likos...........time and a place, bro

pax christi,

phatcatholic

I read what I have read. I said what I have said.

JMJ Likos

[Bruce S]

i feel like it is our duty as catholics to be thankful for the charity he was able to show. i would imagine w/ his history, and the heated debates, and the occasional snide remark, that such a post may have even been hard for him to make. he even prayed about us in church today.

Trust me. It took speaking in tounges, and the Holy Spirit alive in me to type this one. Grin, honest.

Without Glossolalia it would never have happened.

And a good worship song to two...or three....

Section 6 (Worldliness) reaffirms the Assemblies of God adherence to Bible standards in view of the alarming erosion of national moral standards. Rather than listing a catalog of explicit activities, some of which might become confused in time with cultural issues, the statement reads, "We urge all believers to ‘love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. . . . For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world’" (1 John 2:15,16).

It is that spirit that unites us all.

[Anna]

Man. You can't even keep a thread where people are agreeing with you nice.

Um, Bruce, maybe you coulda stopped before posting all that stuff about the Pope...Do you really think we all agree that it doesn't matter even if there is NO POPE at all?

You misunderstand us.

Your attempt at warm fuzziness is appreciated; but is it sincere? Do you really feel this way, or did you have to work yourself into posting those words, perhaps to appear to be the peacemaker?

Honestly when I read the title of this thread, "In Defense of Catholics" posted by Bruce S...I had to wonder if you had a split personality, as you have been Her biggest attacker on this phorum over the past several weeks. Who are you defending Her from? Yourself?

I accept your somewhat wilted olive branch, and hope you are sincerely striving to understand the Catholic Church better.

And Circle Master, for the Love of Jesus Christ...get off Likos' back.

Pax Christi. <><

[CatholicAndFanatical]

OK, if you say so. They have ALL been wonderful men and there have been no ringers in the bunch.

Argh.

Let me rephrase the way things operate around here.

The good ones were OURS, the lousy ones were YOURS....grin.

We claim the best, you take the rest.

No one said that all the Popes were great Popes, not all of them were as Holy as Pope John Paul II. But that doesnt matter how bad they were, as long as the doctrines and teachings didnt get touched, which they didnt.

You seem to want to forget this when saying such statements, I think i've pointed this out to you a few times. Bad Popes, yea ok, you're right. Your point? Teachings are the same, doctrines werent touched, no harm done.

You claim the best? You can hardly claim anything Christ founded, you broke that notion as soon as you left His Church.

Im with Likos on this one, phatcatholic may think it was a charitable act from you, I think it was a wolf in sheep clothing tactic. Your posts on other threads clearly show this. You cannot even get ONE post out that is charitable without having a snyde remark about us in it.

Trust me. It took speaking in tounges, and the Holy Spirit alive in me to type this one. Grin, honest

From your actions I can honestly say I dont think you have the Holy Spirit, one of His gifts is charity. which you clearly lack. And speaking in tongues? I suppose you had someone with you to interpret? And what great knowledge did the Holy Spirit give you when He spoke? My guess would be "Why art thou persecuting me?"

CatholicAndFanatical

[Paladin D]

Guns are not dangerous, people are.

[jasJis]

Hey. It's 8:49 pm here. I've been at Church since 2 as one of the confirmation teachers. Part of the day was Ecuharistic Adoration, and then Mass. Some of the teen helpers post here at phatmass.

I thought about everyone here, during Adoration, and during Mass. I prayed (lots) for us all. I'd like to impose on you and share a few of my prayerful thoughts.

Today's Confirmation teachings were about Prayer, and the Creed.

We all pray in different ways. Most of us can pray constantly when we work to live the decision to always be open to the Holy Spirit. Open to bring our problems to God, listen for His Answers, praise Him, worship Him, thank Him, apologize to Him, etc., etc. When we are open to God's graces, we are open to see God in each other and ourselves. Prayer is about openess to His Will.

The Creed helps keep our brains from falling out in all this openess. It keeps us grounded and shows us specifically, what Graces we may ask from God to help our unbelief. None of us have perfect Faith, otherwise mountians would be flying around on our whim.

BruceS. I'm one of a dozen who teach 15 y/o kids about the Faith. Some have had 9 years of Catholic School, some, just some Sunday school. Some teachers are a little liberal, some are very conservative (usually ex-prots like Likos). Not a single one of us are perfect teachers. But we always pray for graces togehter. We all love the kids and wish nothing but God's best for each and every one of them. Together, we are one group of fine teachers who God has chosen to use to give His grace to His (and our) kids.

Catholicism is centered on God's grace. Period.

One either accepts God's grace, or rejects it. One either is open to it, or is closed to it. You may disagree with where and how Catholics recognize His Grace. Catholicism is very open to His grace. We see it in all Christian religions. We call all Christians members of the Catholic Church because we recognize the graces they see. We say they aren't fully joined, simply because of their failure to see, or be open to, the graces of the Church.

The Graces God gives us through the Church are His gifts of Love to us. Disagree with what you may, and a Catholic will still hope they'll see you in Heaven. Hate the Church and we see you hating His gifts. Denigrate the Church, and you refuse His gifts. That's the way we see it. We can accept you disagreeing with the Catholic Church if your reasons are based in a failure to see the graces and fear leaving the graces you've found in membership of the Christian Church you belong in. We believe in invincible ignorance, which is really God's problem. We can't change your mind, grace alone can do it. Come to us and ask us to show us this Grace we speak of, and we will give our lives to do so.

People of strong Faith like Likos, Winchester, ironmonk, Don John received that strength by God's grace. Gentler people like CMom, Azriel, phatcatholic, recieve that gentleness by God's grace. I like to think I'm somewhere in the middle (like most of us) and it's because we don't know if we are being graced with more strength or more kindness.

It is God's Perfect Will that Grace will be channeled and granted to and through all of us. Catholics can accept an imperfect man to be a Pope because we assign the frailty to the man, the Infallibilty to Grace. But through it all, we have Faith in God's Love, and His Presence in each of us who makes up His Church.

I'm tired of writing now, I have lot's more to say, but maybe someother time. I apologize to you when I gave you anger when I saw hate and refusal to be open to Grace. I don't apologize for defending opportunities of Grace, gifts of God's Love, so that they won't be blurred, or hidden, or made to seem worthless to people I love. When you belittle the Church, to me and most Catholics, you belittle God's gifts of Love.

I will die defending His Church because I recognize that you, I, our sisters & brothers in Christ, need the Grace and Love of God, Abba, as we need the very air we breathe.

God humbled Himself to become a poor itinerant preacher, crucified because of fear and hate, abandoned by his friends, and buried in a borrowed grave. That Man, who Is Grace Embodied, is the Man who has influenced every nation on earth for 2,000 years. What is it of God that He will work His Grace through a Pope who had a concubine? Is it His mistake, His weakness, or a sign of the power of His Love? He loves you and I no less. Whom He chooses to call to serve is His perogative. We shouldn't assume we know better. We should know by know the blackness in our hearts and have an idea of the beauty God sees in us. We are loved no less.

Do not try to convince us Catholics that Grace is not here, or there, or can't come from that person, or must be codified. Grace is. Sometimes codified, sometimes physical, always spritual, and more powerful than we can percieve.

I am Catholic because of Grace. I know God because of Grace. Grace has been shared with me through non-Catholic Christians, Catholics, non-Christians, and the Catholic Church. I cannot ignore or deny or hide any of these eternal life giving gifts to myself, or anyone.

BruceS and Circle_Master,

Please, discuss with openess and love, (as far as we imperfect humans have been graced with an ability to do so), and you will eventually recieve what you give. Continue with blind vitrol and hatred, and I will pray night and day for Grace to battle you with every fiber that God created with me. I pray for God's guidance to discern the two, but apathy is evil's strongest weapon. I ask forgiveness as I recieve God's forgiveness, but rest assured, I am unafraid to err in defense of Love. God will be my judge and yours. I know He will ask me "What did you do for my children I sent you?". You now know what I intend my answer to be... :cool:

Edited January 5, 2004 by jasJis

[Circle_Master]

From your actions I can honestly say I dont think you have the Holy Spirit, one of His gifts is charity. which you clearly lack. And speaking in tongues? I suppose you had someone with you to interpret? And what great knowledge did the Holy Spirit give you when He spoke? My guess would be "Why art thou persecuting me?"

if I decided to judge this forum on charity, there would be many people going to hell

this statement may be a bit out of line as well

Edited January 5, 2004 by Circle_Master

[hopeful1]

ok, as far as the pope thing goes, let's just agree to disagree on this one for now. Bruce has just had a spiritual/religious breakthrough here, and to that Bruce i congradulate you b/c i know it must have taken alot of prayer and meditation for you to write this. While we may disagree on a lot of things here, lets try to concentrate on the things we do share.

Likos, you , may have some very valid points about the pope, but for now lets try to work towards some kind of ecumenism here, whether or not it is shortlived. lets just enjoy it while it lasts....

after all this is the debate phormum, Lord know we're all going to be bickering about something else tomorrow! LOL :P

[Paladin D]

Can we all have at least one moment of peace?