Guest nadir Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 peace upon those who follow the right path dear readers and members ! thanks for this great forum . I'm very happy to be a member in this forum . I would like to know why Iesa(Jesus)(peace be upon him) was crucified although you believe in him as a God ? why didn't he protect himself ? don't we supplicate Allah (God) to save us ? why do some people consider Iesa (Jesus) as a God and at the same time they believe that he was crucified ? here is discrepancy ! to get out of this discrepancy ; they should believe in one matter : 1.either he was crucified ; in this case it's unimaginable to be a God . OR 2.he is a God ; and in this case it's unimaginable to be crucified . kindly ;choose case 1 or case 2 to discuss . take into your consideration that I don't take the 2 cases for granted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Just Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 Jesus is God in Flesh-He is the Image of the Invisible God. He died on the Cross to forgive us our Sins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nadir Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 why did he give up himself ? why didn't he protect himself and us ? who does save you ? isn't He the God ? since he gave up himself instead of protecting himself and us ; this is an apparent evidence of His weakness . so ; the God must be strong . I agree with you that the Word became flesh ; but don't you see that the God must be alive and eternal to save us . thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 He loved us more than He loved Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 I think this whole discussion is going to have to go into explaining the Trinity and free will, too.... Who wants to start explaining? :blink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 Not me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God Conquers Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 Jesus says he is God. This happens in many places in the New Testament including : Luke 5 20-26, Mark 14: 61-64, John 14: 6-7, John 10: 24, 30-33, John 8: 51-59, John 4: 25-26, John 5:21-23. We ended our relationship with God when we (humanity) sinned. As such, we were unable as humans (bodily beings) to communicate with God in the way that He intended. God became man to restore His relationship with us, enduring and defeating the one thing we could not escape as mere humans, death. The historical evidence shows that Jesus really did exist, really did die, and really did ressurect. Only God could do this. Only God WOULD do this. All power, all mercy, all love, all justice. If Jesus did not die on the cross (I think you believe this as a muslim?) what happenned to Him? For 600 years everyone believed that Jesus died on the Cross, until Mohammed said He did not. Did God decieve us? Is deception a trait of God? If it is a trait of the God you believe in then you are the one being decieved. Deception comes from Satan, the Evil one. Not God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 Have you looked into at all how many prophecies of the coming Messiah he (Jesus) fulfilled? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
credo Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 (edited) There are many reasons why Christ did not reveal himself... 1. He loved us so much that he wanted to show those who had Faith how much he really loved us by dieing the most cruel, most horrible death known to man at the time. 2. He loved his Heavenly Father SO MUCH that he was 'obedient to death, even death on the Cross' (Philippians 2:8) 3. Faith is one of the greatest gifts God has given us. Faith is believing without seeing, Faith is believing because God said so and thus it is. If Christ were to reveal himself to us, if he were to save himself and call down 12 legions of Angels, we would not be able to have faith in him because we had seen. Our Faith would be destroyed and Faith would no longer be a gift which we could either accept or reject. Also, you focus on only one part of Christ. Yes he was God, very much so, but he was also Man. As full God and full Man, he was able to die because of his humanity. This was brought through the incarnation, the overshadowing of the Blessed Virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit (the Third Person in the Mysterious Holy Trinity). By Christ's death and resurrection he defeated death. Death no longer would hold sway over us. God is not Dead, for the God Man has risen from the dead, the first born from death. He reigns now in Heaven, very much alive. I will leave it at that for now. Don't want to get to far ahead of myself. God Bless! Edited July 26, 2003 by credo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 (edited) May God's blessing be upon you, nadir. The Christian's answer is 1 and 2. Jesus was God and Man. As God Man He allowed humanity to crucify Him, yet though He died as Man, He did not die as God. He did this to demonstrate His power over man death. This is the gift He gives us and how he explains it. We are man and can die, but we can also accept his gift of divinity and defeat death, joining Him in heaven for eternity. Also. Evil we commit in this man world has consequencences that are tremendous. We cannot fairly atone for this evil by anything we can accomplish. Jesus Son of God and True Man, as innocent sacrifice, made atonement for all evil we could possibly commit. Does the rat call the owl weak because it has the softest feather and weighs no more than a rat? Does the rat's opinion affect the stealth and power of the silent hunter at night? Edited July 26, 2003 by jasJis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 I want to say thank you to Nadir and Ayed, because I just realized how ittle I know, how terribly un-prepared I am for sharing my faith witha Non-Christian. It's very different than arguing with Protestants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 Nadir, No offence, but you've made leaps of logic that would stun a dog. You have noted no discrepancy, you've merely declared the presence of one. That's not logic, that's statment. You must prove it is "unimaginable" for God (or "a" God) to be crucified. You must then persuade me that your lack of imagination is somehow more compelling than my ability to accept said crucifixion, and the deity of the crucified. In your second post, you need to define what you mean by "protect", since again, your assumptions do not follow of neccesity from your statements. From your questions, you apparently have no concept of the reasons behind the crucifixion, and the theology concerning the event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReformationNow Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 Nadir, Peace be upon all those who follow the right path indeed. This path is made available only thru Jesus Christ our Lord. I challenge you to read my entire post and explain how you are able to follow a faith that is so contradictory. Unfortunately, my handy-dandy copy of the Quran is not readily available to me, however, my notes are and are quite capable for this point of discussion. 1. On Jesus Christ To followers of Islam, Jesus Christ is nothing more than a prophet of Allah, and Muhammed supersedes Jesus Christ. However, Jesus Christ was sinless(Sura 3:46); performed miracles(Sura 3:49); and was the Messiah(Sura 3:45; 4:157, 171). Muhammed however, was not sinless; did not perform miracles; nor was a Messiah. Islam teaches that Jesus Christ was nothing but a slave on whom Allah showed favor(Sura 43:59); yet, elsewhere, we are told that the Messiah(Jesus Christ) was not a slave(Sura 4:172). Muslim tradition teaches that Christ was taken bodily off of the Cross without having died(Sura 4:157); yet elswhere teaches that Christ died and was resurrected(Sura 199:33). How can Contradictory teaching on Jesus Christ be accepted by followers of Islam? Furthermore, Islam teaching on revelation of god is that Allah can abrogate(change, substitution necassary for progressive revelation) His revelation to man. I ask you, if Allah can readily change his mind in this manner whenever he feels like it, how stable is your belief in him? How do you know that Allah will accept you when you die? How do you know he has not changed his mind concerning Islam and now loves Jews instead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 We must understand how God works, in order to understand why Christ did what he did. We can get a better understanding of the way God works by first learning the history of God's people, and how He chose to work with them. First thing to understand is free will. God gave us a free will in order for us to know what real LOVE is. Because LOVE is a free will choice. If we didn't have a free will, then we could never really know what it was like to LOVE God. Now, Why didn't Christ just protect us and himself? To answer that, let's look into history - into the Old Testament: How did God choose to protect the firstborn of the Isrealites when He sent His Angles of death to kill all the first born in Egypt? God knew which ones to save to begin with, right. But did God just kill all the Egyptian first born kids? NO! God told His peole to prepare for the "Passover" by sacrificing a lamb, eating the lamb, and covering their door posts with the blood of the lamb. This seemed silly, because really God could have just swept over the land and killed the right people. But it did a few things. The sacrifice of a lamb 1) was a sign to the people that they had God's asurance that He was with them and 2) it was a fortast of the True Lamb, Jesus Christ, that would be Sacrificed for us ALL. So, now, how would God choose to protect us? He chose to become human, to be for us the Lamb of God. In his doing so, he showed us what True LOVE was. To lay down ones life for a friend - out of free will. Had God simply intervened and protected Himself, and then destroyed all evil - we wouldn't have a free will. And Christ would have failed his HUMAN mission - because humans have free will. For God to go against his will - which was to die for us, he would have failed. This sums up the emensity of it. Imagine you had the power to NOT feel pain, and die; yet you will yourself instead to follow though and feel pain and die. What will power God has to do that. What will power Jesus, as a human, had to not call upon His Divinity to intervene! It was a supreme Sacrifice because, as you suggested, Jesus could have just stopped it all. But he didn't. He gave it all up for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 why did he give up himself ? why didn't he protect himself and us ? who does save you ? isn't He the God ? since he gave up himself instead of protecting himself and us ; this is an apparent evidence of His weakness . so ; the God must be strong . I agree with you that the Word became flesh ; but don't you see that the God must be alive and eternal to save us . thanks Have you read Job or the psalms lately? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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