What Do You Think Will Happen

[mulls]

I've noticed that there is a good chance that a black man (I think he's from Africa?) could be elected as the next Pope.

Personally I think that would be amesome, but it doesn't matter what I think.

How do you think this will be viewed in Catholic and secular society? Will there be an uproar over a minority (from an American point of view) that has such influential power, or will this be a great thing in terms of race relations? What about the rest of the world? Just looking for some opinions.

Also, how does it work that this guy could actually become the "Bishop of Rome?" He doesn't have to have anything to do with the area previously? What are the rules on that?

Wasn't it also a big deal that JPII was Polish?

[cmotherofpirl]

I think you are referring to Cardinal Arinze, and I would be thrilled.

http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/barinze.html

In case you didn't know the head of the United States Bishops is Bishop Wilton Gregory of Bellsville, Illinois, who is black.

http://www.diobelle.org/directory/leadership/bishop.html

Traditionally any cardinal can be elected pope, who is by definition the Bishop of Rome.

Edited January 3, 2004 by cmotherofpirl

[M.SIGGA]

There were already three African popes in the Early Church. This is from the National Black Catholic Congress website. Check out their stories because they did some really amesome things during their reigns. God Bless :D

African Popes

There were three African Popes who came from the region of North Africa. Although there are no authentic portraits of these popes, there are drawings and references in the Catholic Encyclopedia as to their being of African background. The names of the Three African Popes are: Victor (183-203 A.D.), Gelasius (492-496 A.D.), and Mechiades or Militiades (311-314 A.D.). All are saints.

Pope Saint Victor 1

Saint Victor was born in Africa and bore a Latin name as most African did at that time. Saint Victor was the fifteenth pope and a native of black Africa. He served from 186 A.D. until 197 A.D. He served during the reign of Emperor Septimus Severus, also African, who had led Roman legions in Britain. Some of the known contributions of Victor were his reaffirming the holy feast of Easter to be held on Sunday as Pius has done. As a matter of fact, he called Theophilous, Bishop of Alexandria, on the carpet for not doing this. He also condemned and excommunicated Theodore of Byzantium because of the denial of the divinity of Jesus Christ. He added acolytes to the attendance of the clergy. He was crowned with martyrdom. He was pope for ten years, two months and ten days. He was buried near the body of the apostle Peter, the first pope in Vatican. Some reports relate that St. Victor died in 198 A.D. of natural causes. Other accounts stated he suffered martyrdom under Servus. He is buried in St. Peter's Basilica in Vatican City near the "Convessio."

Pope Saint Victor 1 feast day is July 28th.

Pope Saint Gelasius 1

Saint Gelasius was born in Rome of African parents and was a member of the Roman clergy from youth. Of the three African popes, Gelasius seems to have been the busiest. He occupied the holy papacy four years, eight months and eighteen days from 492 A.D. until 496 A.D. Gelasius followed up Militades' work with the Manicheans. He exiled them from Rome and burned their books before the doors of the basilica of the holy Mary. He delivered the city of Rome from the peril of famine. He was a writer of strong letters to people of all rank and classes. He denounced Lupercailia, a fertility rite celebration. He asked them sternly why the gods they worshipped had not provided calm seas so the grain ships could have reached Rome in time for the winter. He wrote to Femina, a wealthy woman of rank, and asked her to have the lands of St. Peter, taken by the barbarians and the Romans, be returned to the church. The lands were needed for the poor who were flocking to Rome. His theory on the relations between the Church and the state are explained in the Gelasian Letter to the Byzantine Emperor Anastasius. He was known for his austerity of life and liberality to the poor.

There is today in the library of the church at Rome a 28 chapter document on church administration and discipline. Pope Saint Gelasius 1 feast day is November 21st.

Pope Saint Miliades 1

Saint Miltiades was one of the Church's Black Popes. Militades occupied the papacy from 311 to 314 A.D. serving four years, seven months and eight days. Militiades decreed that none of the faithful should fast on Sunday or on the fifth day of the week ...because this was the custom of the pagans. He also found residing in Rome a Persian based religion call Manichaenism. He furthered decreed that consecrated offerings should be sent throughout the churches from the pope's consecration. This was call leaven. It was Militiades who led the church to final victory over the Roman Empire. Militiades was buried on the famous Appain Way.

Pope Saint Militiades feast day is December 10th.

[jasJis]

An African Bishop won't be the first. Most Catholics, and most American Catholics would accept him without a qualm. You would look like an ass if you complained about it because that would be SO non-Christian.

One doesn't have to have had anything to do with Rome in order to become Bishop of Rome. Most Catholics would prefer it that way.

Yes, it was a relatively big thing to people outside the Church that JPII was Polish because he broke a pretty long tradition of Italian Popes. But it wasn't that big of a thing within the Catholic Church because the Nationality had little to do with Catholicism and meant more to outsiders. The Pope hasn't had significant political power since before the Reformation. That's not to say the Pope doesn't have great INFLUENCE then and now.

[M.SIGGA]

The Black and White racism issue is pretty much an American problem mostly due to America's very violent and hate-filled racial history, so if there is any drama it will come from the American media.

Catholics probably will mention the fact that it is something fairly new in this point in time, but nothing more than that - plus, the average Catholic globally is not white so there probably won't be much of a shocking-racially charged reaction in other parts of the world.

Secular society won't care unless the next pope has potential to change things that they don't like about the Church.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Wasn't it also a big deal that JPII was Polish?

I think it had more to do with Poland being communist than the fact that he was Polish.

[Ash Wednesday]

I believe Gorbachev stated that the Russian Communist Bloc would still be around if it weren't for John Paul II.

I have heard that Arinze would also be of help with Christian - Muslim relations and dialogue. This will be of great importance in the future.

[Katholikos]

I believe Gorbachev stated that the Russian Communist Bloc would still be around if it weren't for John Paul II.

I have heard that Arinze would also be of help with Christian - Muslim relations and dialogue. This will be of great importance in the future.

Right on, Ash Wednesday! Love your avatar.

"It was Gorbachev himself who acknowledged publicly the role of John Paul II in the fall of Communism. 'What has happened in Eastern Europe in recent years would not have been possible without the presence of this Pope, without the great role even political that he has played on the world scene' (quoted in La Stampa, March 3, 1992).

Complete article on JPII's role in the fall of communism at

http://religion-cults.com/pope/communism.htm

JPII, WE LOVE YOU! MAY YOU LIVE 10,000 YEARS!

Arinze suits me fine -- very orthodox. He would be great. But the Holy Spirit often surprises us -- as was the case with the election of JPII.

[traichuoi]

someone correct me if i am wrong but i thought that any single, confirmed, Catholic male is a candidate to be elected Pope. i remember learning this in CCD...

if the male wasn't ordained he would obviously be ordained before becoming Pope...

am i wrong?

[M.SIGGA]

someone correct me if i am wrong but i thought that any single, confirmed, Catholic male is a candidate to be elected Pope. i remember learning this in CCD...

if the male wasn't ordained he would obviously be ordained before becoming Pope...

am i wrong?

I was taught this too. I think this is like worst case senario, like in Roman times when the Emperor had the power to kill all the Christians in his domain if he could. I don't think it would come to this again unless there was a similar situation all over again - maybe when all those prophesized chastisements come about :unsure:

[Bruce S]

Remember, on the FIRST round of balloting, JPII got two votes, PERIOD.

On the SECOND ROUND of voting ... two votes.

On the THRID ROUND of voting .... four votes.

He was not even close to being "in the money" going into the last conclave.

God works in mysterious ways, doesn't he? Did you know that the smart money 'including many clergy' are betting on this, grin, yeah, they bet on everything in Ireland, so here is the current lineup, and the odds as of this morning.

The Irish take a HUGE interest in Catholic matters, so I guess that this one represents some good thinking, since they are laying money on the line here.

Best Odds Bookmakers Exchange Odds

Dionigi Tettamanzi 2 -

Claudio Hummes 5/2 -

hot stuff Lucas Ortega y Alamino 11/2 -

Francis Arinze 6 -

Giovanni Battista Re 8 -

Giacomo Biffi 10 -

Cardinal Oscar Rodriguez Maradiaga 10 -

Ennio Antonelli 12 -

Count Christoph von Schoenborn 12 -

Jorge Mario Bergoglio 12 -

Cardinal Dario Castrillion Hoyos 14 -

Juan Luis Cipriani 14

These are only the top runners, the long shots too are on this betting site....

http://www.online-betting-guide.co.uk/Next-Pope.htm

Edited January 4, 2004 by Bruce S

[Bruce S]

Latest Next Pope Betting Odds

Grim rumors are swirling that Pope John Paul II, who suffers from Parkinson's disease and other serious ailments, might soon die. What will be the procedure for selecting the next pope, the 264th successor to St. Peter?

According to centuries-old tradition, the papal election is handled entirely by the Sacred College of Cardinals. The college is technically supposed to consist of a maximum of 120 cardinals, though Pope John Paul II has bent this rule by adding a few more (the current cardinal count is 135). Fifteen to 20 days after the pope's death, the cardinals will convene in the Sistine Chapel, in a secret meeting known as the conclave. There, they'll be handed strips of paper emblazoned with the Latin words "Eligo in summum pontificem"-I elect as supreme pontiff. Each cardinal will write down the name of the fellow cardinal he'd like to see elevated to pope and place the ballot in a chalice. (Although the name of any Catholic man can technically be submitted, cardinals, almost without exception, vote for other cardinals.) A cardinal is not supposed to vote for himself. And per a 1975 rule change made by Pope Paul VI, cardinals 80 years old or greater are barred from voting.

The votes are tabulated by the camerlengo (currently Cardinal Eduardo Martinez Somalo of Spain), head of the college and the man who manages the pope's secular affairs. An assistant will then bind the ballots together with a needle and thread. A victor must receive more than two-thirds of the votes, so it's unlikely anything will be decided after the first round of ballots. If the vote is inconclusive, the ballots will be mixed together with straw and burned in the fireplace; the black smoke that issues forth signals to outside observers that the election is still ongoing.

In past elections, the balloting continued until a candidate received a two-thirds majority. But in 1996, Pope John Paul II tweaked the rules when he promulgated the Universi Dominici Gregis. Aside from mandating that the cardinals could stay in the nearby Domus Sanctae Marthae (St. Martha's House) during the election (rather than in cubicles in the Apostolic Palace), the document also stipulates certain circumstances under which an absolute majority can suffice. Basically, if no decision is reached after three days, the conclave should take a one-day break. After the cardinals return, they should go through no more than 21 additional ballots, with a break for prayer and discussion after the seventh, the 14th, and the 21st. At that point, an absolute majority-that is, half the cardinals plus one-is all that's needed to tap the next pontiff.

Once the decision is made, the ballots will be burned sans straw; the resulting white smoke is the signal that a new pope has been successfully selected.

Paddy Power

Irish bookmaker

Merely to discuss the issue can cause offence.

Yet a leading Irish bookmaker, Paddy Power, is apparently willing to risk a bolt of lightning from the heavens.

In addition to a wide range of sports betting, the company offers odds on the Miss World contest and the chances of snow at Christmas.

It recently caused a stir by including John Paul II in a "Dole Derby" of people about to lose their jobs.

Now, venturing further into the religious world, the company's website lists 15 clerics and their odds of becoming the next Pope.

Most are serious contenders for the papacy, but the inclusion of Father Dougal McGuire of Craggy Island may come as a surprise to the Vatican.

Television viewers will recognise him as the scatterbrained young priest in the Father Ted sitcom. He is the outsider at 1,000-1.

"People in Ireland are irreverent and we are just having a little fun," said Paddy Power, the company's operating executive.

"There has been plenty of interest all right, but no reaction from the Church. I don't think they would lower themselves by commenting on a bookmaker.

"I suppose we will find out on Judgment Day!"

Inside track?

The bookmaker sought the advice of religious affairs correspondents in drawing up its list of runners for the papal stakes.

Papal odds

4-1:

Francis Arinze

6-1:

Giacomo Biffi, Dionigi Tettamanzi

8-1:

Dario Castrillon Hoyos, Christoph Schonborn

10-1:

Giovanni Battista Re

1,000-1:

Father McGuire

"It is an unusual market, and we don't have a religious expert here," said Mr Power.

The current favourite, with odds of 4-1, is Cardinal Francis Arinze of Nigeria, who has frequently been tipped for the papacy.

Like just about every other cardinal who is regarded as "papabile" - the Italian word for a possible Pope - he refuses to discuss his chances.

Next on the list are two Italians. Cardinal Dionigi Tettamanzi, the newly-appointed Archbishop of Milan, and Cardinal Giacomo Biffi of Bologna are both quoted at 6-1.

Five of the likely contenders are from Latin America, a reflection of the increasing power of this part of the Catholic world.

In the short time the book has been open, Paddy Power has accepted "a good few" bets, with stakes of up to £200 (300 euros).

But who is betting on the papacy? The bookmaker cannot be sure, but some of the smart money may be coming from the clergy.

Who else would risk a flutter on one of the world's most unpredictable elections?

"There is nothing wrong in priests having a bet, and you often see them at the races," said Mr Power.

"They are probably more knowledgeable than we are about this, so I think some of them will have had a wager, and will be praying for the right result."

Tight-lipped

Needless to say, none of the cardinals who feature in the betting would ever acknowledge that they have a chance of becoming Pope.

Campaigning for the papacy is strictly forbidden, and most cardinals would be embarrassed even to be mentioned as a papal runner.

The Vatican stresses that the outcome of papal elections is the work of the Holy Spirit.

Others may see it as a race, but it is one that will take place well away from the public gaze.

The process of electing the next Pope will begin shortly after the death of John Paul II.

The most senior members of the Catholic hierarchy will gather together in a secret meeting called a conclave.

All cardinals under the age of 80 are entitled to take part in the voting. Currently there are 114, and one of them will almost certainly emerge as the next Pope.

Because the voters are locked inside the Vatican, isolated from the outside world, the first sign that a Pope has been chosen will be white smoke rising above the Sistine Chapel.

The cardinals are forbidden to communicate with the outside world, which means they will be banned from using mobile phones.

This emphasis on secrecy means it would be difficult for anyone on the outside to pull off a betting coup.

"If there are any rumours, the money will start to flood in, so I am sure we would know," said Mr Power.

In the event of a candidate dying before the election, horse racing's Rule 4 will apply and they will be treated as a non-runner.

Big loser

Paddy Power says the book will remain open until the papal election - whenever that is. The odds will be adjusted as the money comes in.

They might be reluctant to admit to a bet, but members of the clergy do have a distinct advantage in judging the form of the runners.

However, the person with the most to lose is probably the unfortunate cardinal tipped to be Pope.

This is one election where being regarded as the favourite is a serious handicap.

There is an old Vatican saying: "He who goes into the conclave a Pope, comes out a cardinal."

That may please those cardinals who have no desire to take on such a daunting job.

But for some, it could mean the end of an unspoken ambition.

[cmotherofpirl]

Good article Bruce

A favorite Italian saying is "he who goes in a pope, come out a cardinal"

All bets are off when you are dealing with God.

[ICTHUS]

Here's a question:

The Holy Spirit cannot err...

Did the Holy Spirit elect Pope Leo X?

[cmotherofpirl]

THe Holy Spirit doesn't do the electing.

THe Holy Spirit prevents the pope from teaching a doctrine for the whole Church that is in error concerning faith and morals.

THats it. THat is the total extent of infallibility. Its a negative functoin.

THe pope can be a total jerk, sinful etc, but as long as he doesn't try to mess with faith and morals, God puts up with him.

Remember the parable of the wheat and tares?