Do you believe the Medjigoure "apparitions" to be

[ckozlowski]

have you not heard my testimony? read back to it. I have seen your object of veneration. I've seen her, yes. I loved her, i was deceived. But it is not what i thought it was. If you could see.. I wish you could

[Jaime]

[quote name='ckozlowski' post='1386334' date='Sep 15 2007, 11:26 PM']have you not heard my testimony? read back to it. I have seen your object of veneration. I've seen her, yes. I loved her, i was deceived. But it is not what i thought it was. If you could see.. I wish you could[/quote]

I read your testimony. I see just fine. If there were any messages from Medjugorje that contradicted the teachings of the Church, I'd be the first in line to shoot it down.

[ckozlowski]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1386427' date='Sep 16 2007, 12:35 AM']I read your testimony. I see just fine. If there were any messages from Medjugorje that contradicted the teachings of the Church, I'd be the first in line to shoot it down.[/quote]

let me just say i don't want to debate with you hot stuff. I've been doing that way too much within the last week..

In all humility i'm just curious and want to see what you make of this..

The bible tells us "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, [i]they shall deceive the very elect[/i]."

"elect" = those chosen by God

so in other words it says that its not impossible for those chosen by God to be deceived..

The bible also tells us "Do not believe every spirit. Put the spirits to the test to see if they belong to God...How can you recognize the Spirit of God?...We belong to God. And those who know God listen to us. But those who don't belong to God don't listen to us. That's how we can tell the difference between the Spirit of truth and the spirit of lies."

i'm not trying to bash..seriously

but when you say "If there were any messages from Medjugorje that contradicted the teachings of the Church"

by saying "church" ... i'm just wondering why it is more wise to test these spirits with that which can be deceived.. ex: "if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

would you not deem it more wise to test these spirits with that which cannot be deceived nor deceive you? i'm referring to the bible.

I'm assuming that you believe that the pope cannot be deceived.. i'm wonderin seriously i'm just curious why you place trust in this concept of infallibility.. i just wonna know why it is as trustworthy as the bible ..and where it can be found ..and why you dont consider it dangerous to trust in people who add concepts to the bible.. ex: "the assumption of mary, praying to dead people.. "

instead of trusting in the bible..which is incorruptible and what has a 0% chance of deceiving you..

So what i'm getting at is.. if..and boy am i stressing that word if... if these additives to the sacred scripture were already strategically put in place by someone down below.. just by chance..i'm not forcing my beliefs on you.. i'm just saying if this was actually so...

would you not deem it more wise in any case ..just because this is possible...to test everything with what has a 0% chance of deceiving you?

As a devout catholic.. i tested this phenomena with the bible.

thousands of catholics around the world have done as i have.

what would bring us to this..that we would leave all that we love?

so were in the minority... but in the U.S. protestants vastly outnumber catholics.. what would make so many people turn away?

I personally believe, after picking up a major in biblical studies, that many who truly trust in their bibles over the church -as scripture commands- and believe in this phenomena will come to the conclusion that satan has used his great signs and wonders to crawl his way into catholic dogma over the course of history.

i'm really not looking for a hot debate, i'd like this to be casual, i'm sick of the heat.

i hope this didn't offend you. if it did, honestly i'd be glad to shutup, i'm not goin to in the other forum tho.

-God bless-

Edited September 16, 2007 by ckozlowski

[ckozlowski]

"God has breathed life into all of Scripture. It is useful for teaching us what is true. It is useful for correcting our mistakes. It is useful for making our lives whole again. It is useful for training us to do what is right. 17 By using Scripture, a man of God can be completely prepared to do every good thing. " 2 Tim.

"Preach the word. Be ready to serve God in good times and bad. Correct people's mistakes. Warn them. Cheer them up with words of hope. Be very patient as you do these things. Teach them carefully.
The time will come when people won't put up with true teaching. Instead, they will try to satisfy their own longings. They will gather a large number of teachers around them. The teachers will say what the people want to hear. 4 The people will turn their ears away from the truth. They will turn to stories that aren't completely true." 2 Tim 4

"The message as it has been taught can be trusted. He must hold firmly to it. Then he will be able to use true teaching to comfort others and build them up. He will be able to prove that people who oppose it are wrong." Titus ch 1

Edited September 16, 2007 by ckozlowski

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='ckozlowski' post='1386486' date='Sep 16 2007, 12:07 PM']I'm assuming that you believe that the pope cannot be deceived.. i'm wonderin seriously i'm just curious why you place trust in this concept of infallibility.. i just wonna know why it is as trustworthy as the bible ..and where it can be found ..and why you dont consider it dangerous to trust in people who add concepts to the bible.. ex: "the assumption of mary, praying to dead people.. "[/quote]

First off, glad to see you here.

The Pope is a person, and as such can sin, and be deceived. The concept of infallibility means that God will not allow the Pope to teach error in matters of faith and morals, and we trust God in this. And there are verses in the Bible that point to it ([url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp"]listed here[/url]). That link also shows how early Christians thought about this.

As for this being as trustworthy as the Bible, the Bible itself never claims to be the only source of God's word. In fact, Paul repeatedly tells people to obey both what has been written, and what he has taught orally (1 Cor 11:2; 2 Thes 2:15; 2 Thes 3:6). Yes, the Bible is definitely useful, and wonderful gift from God, but it is not the only resource available to us from God.

And on a side-note, we don't pray to dead people - for the Saints are alive in Christ. (see Matt 22:32). There is also a difference between something not being mentioned in the Bible and actually contradicting the Bible. Obviously the Trinity is not mentioned in the Bible, but does not contradict the Bible. Just so the Assumption of Mary, while not in the Bible, does not contradict the Bible. Especially as she was not the only person to be assumed into Heaven, since Enoch & Elijah were assumed into Heaven in the OT.

God bless.

Edited September 16, 2007 by Archaeology cat

[TotusTuusMaria]

I am waiting for the Church.

I do have a question though which I have about the supposed apparitions. I read somewhere that the vision that is suppose to be Our Lady told one/some/all of the supposed visionaries that the world would end in their lifetime. Is this true?

[dairygirl4u2c]

i heard that the secrets the visionaries have would be revealed in their lifetime. most have one left. i don't think anyone has any more. that might be what you're thinking of.

that was a well written reply archeology cat. and you obviously know apologetics to be spitting that.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1386586' date='Sep 16 2007, 06:03 PM']that was a well written reply archeology cat. and you obviously know apologetics to be spitting that.[/quote]

Thanks, Dairy. I don't really think of myself as an apologist or anything, I just like to learn more and more. Maybe it comes in part from being a convert, and the fact that I'm really analytical about just about everything.

Edited September 16, 2007 by Archaeology cat

[Dismas]

Ckozlowski, I thank you for your sincerity and polite approach. I hope to reply in such spirit, and beg beforehand your pardon should I succumb to my abrasive demeanor in response.

[quote name='ckozlowski' post='1386486' date='Sep 16 2007, 07:07 AM']let me just say i don't want to debate with you hot stuff. I've been doing that way too much within the last week..

In all humility i'm just curious and want to see what you make of this..

The bible tells us "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, [i]they shall deceive the very elect[/i]."

"elect" = those chosen by God

so in other words it says that its not impossible for those chosen by God to be deceived..[/quote]
Indeed, historically speaking, there have been a sizable number of false apparitions that were not mere frauds. Satan has even on occasions appeared in a guise of Jesus.

Also, there have been men, perhaps delusional, perhaps wicked, and perhaps possessed, who have proclaimed themselves as the Christ returned. These men seek to deceive Catholic and Protestant alike, and have deceived many.

Further, there have been false men and women who have proclaimed heresies, from the days of the Apostles on. The Catholic Church has recognized, though many Catholics have not, the falsities of such men as Valentinus, Marcion, Montanus, Mani, Arius, Pelagius, Theodoren and Nestorius. The errors of these men stand out, and a majority of Protestants wholeheartedly agree with their Catholic brethren.
[quote name='ckozlowski' post='1386486' date='Sep 16 2007, 07:07 AM']The bible also tells us "Do not believe every spirit. Put the spirits to the test to see if they belong to God...How can you recognize the Spirit of God?...We belong to God. And those who know God listen to us. But those who don't belong to God don't listen to us. That's how we can tell the difference between the Spirit of truth and the spirit of lies."

i'm not trying to bash..seriously

but when you say "If there were any messages from Medjugorje that contradicted the teachings of the Church"

by saying "church" ... i'm just wondering why it is more wise to test these spirits with that which can be deceived.. ex: "if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

would you not deem it more wise to test these spirits with that which cannot be deceived nor deceive you? i'm referring to the bible.[/quote]
That's the crux of the issue with Medjugorje, isn't it? I do not believe that the visions of Medjugorje are of God. The problem that presents itself here is, what if Satan attacks the faithful not by contradicting the Truth (Biblical and Traditional, with a big T), but rather by leading those faithful into false allegiance?
[quote name='ckozlowski' post='1386486' date='Sep 16 2007, 07:07 AM']I'm assuming that you believe that the pope cannot be deceived.. i'm wonderin seriously i'm just curious why you place trust in this concept of infallibility.. i just wonna know why it is as trustworthy as the bible ..and where it can be found ..and why you dont consider it dangerous to trust in people who add concepts to the bible.. ex: "the assumption of mary, praying to dead people.. "[/quote]
The pope can be deceived. The pope can deceive. The pope can be wrong. The pope can be a manifestly wicked and evil man.

Infallibility is not impeccability. Only when teaching faith and morals while using his authority as pope can he be infallible. Even then, the pope may teach something vague and thus lead some into heretical interpretations, as infallibility prevents the pope from being false, not explicitly comprehensible.

As for trust in the Bible alone, well, who do you think assembled the scriptures, gospels, and the memoirs of the Apostles? By the time this was formally done in the 5th century, there were 50 gospels running around, over a dozen acts, and numerous epistles. The heated debates over what was apostolic and what was fraud raged throughout the Church, even after that.

As for the "praying for the dead", it is in the Bible, just not your brutally truncated version. Otherwise, you would read the wonderful example of the Maccabees. As for the Assumption of Mary, is it not written in Sacred Scripture that we shall all be bodily resurrected? Are you stating the the Bible pronounces that the Assumption of one very close to Jesus is impossible?
[quote name='ckozlowski' post='1386486' date='Sep 16 2007, 07:07 AM']instead of trusting in the bible..which is incorruptible and what has a 0% chance of deceiving you..

So what i'm getting at is.. if..and boy am i stressing that word if... if these additives to the sacred scripture were already strategically put in place by someone down below.. just by chance..i'm not forcing my beliefs on you.. i'm just saying if this was actually so...

would you not deem it more wise in any case ..just because this is possible...to test everything with what has a 0% chance of deceiving you?[/quote]
I believe you forgot that Satan uses Scripture too (Matt 4:5-6), and he's had centuries more time studying it than any of us. While the whole of Sacred Scripture is inerrant, misusing verses within it is a favorite game of the devil.
[quote name='ckozlowski' post='1386486' date='Sep 16 2007, 07:07 AM']As a devout catholic.. i tested this phenomena with the bible.

thousands of catholics around the world have done as i have.

what would bring us to this..that we would leave all that we love?[/quote]
It wasn't all just the Bible, as nationalism, church monopolies, and scandals were powerful forces during the Reformation. Even so, Biblical interpretation by fallen man has many times before caused schisms and heresies. We, the Catholic Church remember when Sacred Scripture was used to promote Gnostic, Arian, Nestorian, Monophysite errors. The Word is not errant, but the fallen mind of man certainly is.
[quote name='ckozlowski' post='1386486' date='Sep 16 2007, 07:07 AM']so were in the minority... but in the U.S. protestants vastly outnumber catholics.. what would make so many people turn away?[/quote]
Many have not turned away, but have been separated for generations. For those who have fallen away, I understand. Such follies as the Social Gospel, heavy on social(ism) and thin on Gospel, and blasphemous errors such as New Age and radical feminism have greatly damaged the Church in America. Even so, the 1970's are over and those who cling to them are growing old and dying out. Those who remained, who have not filled themselves with seductive philosophies and errors, shall form the core of the New Evangelization proclaimed by Pope John Paul II. You are seeing within this very website one of the many nurseries of a Catholic Movement. I pray this very day and hour that I shall live long enough to see the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church in full bloom.
[quote name='ckozlowski' post='1386486' date='Sep 16 2007, 07:07 AM']I personally believe, after picking up a major in biblical studies, that many who truly trust in their bibles over the church -as scripture commands- and believe in this phenomena will come to the conclusion that satan has used his great signs and wonders to crawl his way into catholic dogma over the course of history.

i'm really not looking for a hot debate, i'd like this to be casual, i'm sick of the heat.

i hope this didn't offend you. if it did, honestly i'd be glad to shutup, i'm not goin to in the other forum tho.

-God bless-[/quote]
You are free to believe in Christ as best as you can, and such is commendable. I would like to remind you, however, that not one passage of Sacred Scripture has not been commented upon a dozen times over, and its meaning dissected even more within the Catholic Church by earnest men of God.

As for signs and wonders, while Satan has his illusions and tricks, the works of the Crucified Victor are not absent in this late day. The Catholic Church earnestly tests these wonders and judges upon them, and quite often it is indeed the teachings within the Holy Bible that out the false.

Your brother in our mutual Lord and Savior,
Dismas

J.M.J.

Edited September 16, 2007 by Dismas

[Chiquitunga]

There was also another message on different religions from 1984. The one quoted earlier in this thread is the one from 1981. It's in the booklet I have, [i]I Beg You, Listen to My Messages and Live Them[/i] published by Divine Mercy Publications, Skerries, Co. Dublin.

On the matter of a Catholic priest, confused because of the cure of an Orthodox child:
[quote]Tell this priest, tell everyone, that it is you who are divided on earth. The Muslims and the Orthodox, for the same reason as Catholics, are equal before my Son and me. You are all my children.

Certainly, all religions are not equal, but all men are equal before God, as St. Paul says. It does not suffice to belong to the Catholic Church to be saved, but it is necessary to respect the commandments of God in following one's conscience.

Those who are not Catholics, are no less creatures made in the image of God, and destined to rejoin someday, the House of the Father. Salvation is available to everyone, without exception. Only those who refuse God deliberately, are condemned.

To him, who has been given little, little will be asked for. To whomever has been given much [to Catholics], very much will be required. It is God alone, in His infinite Justice, Who determines the degree of responsibility and pronounces judgment.[/quote]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1386576' date='Sep 16 2007, 10:06 AM']I am waiting for the Church.
I do have a question though which I have about the supposed apparitions. I read somewhere that the vision that is suppose to be Our Lady told one/some/all of the supposed visionaries that the world would end in their lifetime. Is this true?[/quote]
It was that what is contained in the 10 secrets would happen during their lifetime, which they have said does not include the end of the world. I remember specifically reading that in the book, [i]Queen of the Cosmos[/i] by Janice Connell. From what I understand, it is rather a purification of the world.

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=68834"]Marian apparitions[/url] thread

[url="http://www.motherofallpeoples.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1092&Itemid=83"]Mary in Private Revelation[/url], by Dr. Mark Miravalle, STD, professor of Theology & Mariology at the Franciscan University of Steubenville

Personally, I highly dislike debates on Medjugorje. I have several awesome totally orthodox Catholic friends who are against it, and several awesome totally orthodox Catholic friends who believe it. I stick to what we already have in the Church now, which I don't believe could ever be exhausted in several lifetimes. What is being asked of people in the messages of Medjugorje is no different than that - to pray with the heart, put Mass in the center of your life, adore Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, go to Confession, read the Bible, imitate the lives of the saints, etc.

Edited September 16, 2007 by Margaret Clare

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='Margaret Clare' post='1386624' date='Sep 16 2007, 01:21 PM']I stick to what we already have in the Church now, which I don't believe could ever be exhausted in several lifetimes.[/quote]
Actually, which is infinite, and can never be exhausted

[ckozlowski]

Dismas, I would have to say that having spent a full week in these forums on this matter.. that I have not before your reply received such an elaborate intellectual and well intentioned rendition. I have received more insight in your one reply than all of the replies that I have received on this site. I'm guessing you may be in the profession of teaching? If not, I would recommend it. Even though we still differ in opinion on this matter..

-very well said-

Edited September 16, 2007 by ckozlowski

[chelsea]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1386576' date='Sep 16 2007, 01:06 PM']I am waiting for the Church.

I do have a question though which I have about the supposed apparitions. I read somewhere that the vision that is suppose to be Our Lady told one/some/all of the supposed visionaries that the world would end in their lifetime. Is this true?[/quote]


Each visionary has/will be given ten secrets. Three have them all, and three still are waiting for one more. Once all six have received all ten secrets, Mirjana I believe will consult with a priest whom she has already chosen and who has been approved by Our Lady, and they will fast for one week before revealing the secrets. We only know two things about them: One of the secrets is that there will be a permanent, indestructible mark in Medjugorje for the world to see, and that one of the secrets has been eliminated due to prayer and fasting.

[Jaime]

[quote name='chelsea' post='1386812' date='Sep 16 2007, 10:43 PM']Each visionary has/will be given ten secrets. Three have them all, and three still are waiting for one more. Once all six have received all ten secrets, Mirjana I believe will consult with a priest whom she has already chosen and who has been approved by Our Lady, and they will fast for one week before revealing the secrets. We only know two things about them: One of the secrets is that there will be a permanent, indestructible mark in Medjugorje for the world to see, and that one of the secrets has been eliminated due to prayer and fasting.[/quote]


My personal hope is that when the secrets are revealed one of them will explain how to understand women.


I know its a long shot...

[scardella]

BTW, 3 of my friends, all of them very well-formed in the faith, chaperoned a trip there a couple weeks ago. I trust their judgment, period. Based on their testimony and others whom I would trust with my life, I believe it to be authentic.

Judging from the fruit of the pilgrimage, I don't see how anyone could say it's of demonic origin. There were major conversions within the group (several people were "forced" by family members to go), healings (spiritual and physical), and even effects on their families and friends. Several people reported that relatives that hadn't gone to church in years all of a sudden had a change of heart and gone to confession and mass.

Edited September 17, 2007 by scardella