Do you believe the Medjigoure "apparitions" to be

[Sojourner]

The value in a vision is in the response in brings out in someone's life. I personally could care less if someone has seen a fantastic vision if their faith and life don't evidence lasting change for the better.

[kateri05]

[quote]I grew as an alter server, and eventually became a Eucharistic minister.[/quote]

by the way, you weren't a Eucharistic minister, you were an extraordinary minister of Holy Communion.


HUGE pet peeve of mine, sorry, couldn't let it go

[Dismas]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1384535' date='Sep 12 2007, 08:42 PM']The value in a vision is in the response in brings out in someone's life. I personally could care less if someone has seen a fantastic vision if their faith and life don't evidence lasting change for the better.[/quote]

[b]Exactly![/b] If I remember correctly, it took quite some time for Our Lady of Guadalupe to be recognized as an authentic apparition. What's the rush? The heartbeat of the Church is counted in generations, and yet so many scream "now! now!". Miraculous shrines testifying the Catholic Faith are scattered in great number throughout the world, many far more impressive than all the supernatural testimony of those in Medjugorje combined.

As I do not believe the visions of Medjugorje to be of God, I fear that for all the spiritual feelings generated by this moment, a great net loss of faith would doubtlessly happen should these visionaries be proven false.

Suppose, for instance, that the Vatican and local bishop were to condemn it. Imagine that outrage, shock, disloyalty, and outright schism that would manifest from Medjugorje's supporters.

[dairygirl4u2c]

good point dismass.
and gotta the what those being converted are being converted to, some good, some bad. how much etc. it's all part of the equation.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Dismas' post='1384650' date='Sep 12 2007, 11:06 PM'][b]Exactly![/b] If I remember correctly, it took quite some time for Our Lady of Guadalupe to be recognized as an authentic apparition. What's the rush? The heartbeat of the Church is counted in generations, and yet so many scream "now! now!". Miraculous shrines testifying the Catholic Faith are scattered in great number throughout the world, many far more impressive than all the supernatural testimony of those in Medjugorje combined.

As I do not believe the visions of Medjugorje to be of God, I fear that for all the spiritual feelings generated by this moment, a great net loss of faith would doubtlessly happen should these visionaries be proven false.

Suppose, for instance, that the Vatican and local bishop were to condemn it. Imagine that outrage, shock, disloyalty, and outright schism that would manifest from Medjugorje's supporters.[/quote]

Well as someone who's been there and believes in Medjugorje, I'll chime in.

I know in my heart that what is happening there is real. But let's say the Church in her wisdom, deemed the visions to be a fraud (which realistically won't happen in our lifetimes) it wouldn't phase me. And I doubt it would phase a majority of folks who have made the pilgrimage.

There are a bunch of "medj heads" that will sell everything they own to go back. They have all the literature. They talk about it constantly and are sincerely obsessed with what is happening there. And I honestly feel bad for them. Experiences like Medjugorje should be a supplement to the faith. Even if it the reason for your conversion. And that is the overwhelming message of Medjugorje. The message of Medjugorje is "Pray, fast, got to confession, go to mass, repeat often" Sadly there are a few who hear it and think "yeah but I want more" and they don't get that all the miracles in the world can't compare to going to confession and mass.

If someone has built a solid foundation of faith based on prayer, confession and mass. An experience such as Medjugorje and seeing the miracles really won't have a dramatic life changing effect on them.

nor should it

[dairygirl4u2c]

i don't know if i'm repeating if i read it here or where but. one of hte seers said their day's highlight is not the apparition, but going to mass. she said if we all were to have that attitude, about the apparitions and life, all wold be right.

[beata_virgo_maria]

It's good to remember that this is all private revelation and no one needs to believe it, period, even if it is approved. So think twice (actually way more than that) and never build your faith solely upon an apparition, always anchor yourself in Christ first.

Anyway that's just my two cents.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='beata_virgo_maria' post='1385986' date='Sep 15 2007, 12:33 PM']It's good to remember that this is all private revelation and no one needs to believe it, period, even if it is approved.[/quote]
Very well said.

[ckozlowski]

you people have more wisdom than those in the "lies from fatima" debate room. But you guys need to ask, if these apparitions were of God, would they entice people to do these things? I believe that these are not revelations from heaven but theyre deceptions from hell itself. I've seen the miracles and theyre not miracles, they're a deception. I witnessed the sun dancing in the sky. This is the devil trying to pull as many people away from Christ as he can. These are the last days, this is the spirit of the Antichrist that john warns us of in revelation. I'm here to warn all of you. Go ahead and dispute with me. I know my words are falling on deaf ears. All I can do is pray, i can do nothing on my own.

Edited September 15, 2007 by ckozlowski

[Apotheoun]

ckozlowski,

I am not offended at all by your opinion on this issue.



God bless,
Todd

[ruso]

Very few know that in 1991 the Episcopal Conference of the Bishops of Yugoslavia declared that until now there are no reasons to affirm that in Medjugorje are true supernatural appearances. Consequently, and by disposition of Vatican, the official peregrinations to Medjugorje, understood like a place of Marians appearances, they cannot be organized at parochial nor diocesan level.

Before somebody is scandalized, it is necessary to remember that the only supernatural communications that the Christians we have obligation to believe like of divine origin are those of the Revelation, that is to say, those that God gave to its Church through the Apostles and who are contained so much in the Sacred Scriptures as in the Tradition (with capital letter).

This does not discard that, after Saint Jonh, the last one of the Apostles in passing away, has happened deprived revelations of divine character, but these nor increase nor change the Revelation, because everything what the Gentleman had to communicate to us either did it.

In fact, when the Church “approves” appearances Marians does not guarantee its authenticity, but that it is limited not to prohibit that it is created merely with human faith in them, since they do not contradict the revealed thing by God. And, we repeated, are possible to be believed then with merely human faith, because they do not serve nor they can serve as foundation the catholic faith.

Then, if anybody is not convinced of the appearances of the Virgin in Lourdes or the Tepeyac, neither freckle nor lets be in comunión with the Church.

Edited September 15, 2007 by ruso

[Jaime]

[quote name='ckozlowski' post='1385994' date='Sep 15 2007, 02:53 PM']you people have more wisdom than those in the "lies from fatima" debate room. But you guys need to ask, if these apparitions were of God, would they entice people to do these things? I believe that these are not revelations from heaven but theyre deceptions from hell itself. I've seen the miracles and theyre not miracles, they're a deception. I witnessed the sun dancing in the sky. This is the devil trying to pull as many people away from Christ as he can. These are the last days, this is the spirit of the Antichrist that john warns us of in revelation. I'm here to warn all of you. Go ahead and dispute with me. I know my words are falling on deaf ears. All I can do is pray, i can do nothing on my own.[/quote]

The apparition continually asks us to pray, fast, say rosaries, go to confession and go to mass. So I'm pretty cool with it

[allis-challmers]

I am not sure if it is true or not. I think that there is a lot of good that comes out of the "apporitions".

[Deo Iuvente]

[quote name='ckozlowski' post='1385994' date='Sep 15 2007, 01:53 PM']you people have more wisdom than those in the "lies from fatima" debate room.[/quote] You still have'nt tried at all to refue my three pages of arguments.All you do is throw around red herrings and other logical fallacies.This is bad rhetoric.
[quote]But you guys need to ask, if these apparitions were of God, would they entice people to do these things?[/quote] Such as......?
[quote]I believe that these are not revelations from heaven but theyre deceptions from hell itself.[/quote] You've yet yo attempt to prove so. An assertion is'nt proof.
[quote]I've seen the miracles and theyre not miracles, they're a deception.[/quote] Prove?
[quote]I witnessed the sun dancing in the sky. This is the devil trying to pull as many people away from Christ as he can.[/quote] Prove?
[quote]These are the last days, this is the spirit of the Antichrist that john warns us of in revelation. I'm here to warn all of you. Go ahead and dispute with me.[/quote]This is a debate forum,yet it's becoming one sided.You never attempt to PROVE that we are in error,you just resort to argumentum ad nauseam,as if that will prove your case.Neither do you attempt to refute the errors in other people's arguments.I ask you kindly to do so. .

[chelsea]

[quote name='ckozlowski' post='1385994' date='Sep 15 2007, 03:53 PM']But you guys need to ask, if these apparitions were of God, would they entice people to do these things? I believe that these are not revelations from heaven but theyre deceptions from hell itself. I've seen the miracles and theyre not miracles, they're a deception. I witnessed the sun dancing in the sky. This is the devil trying to pull as many people away from Christ as he can. These are the last days, this is the spirit of the Antichrist that john warns us of in revelation. I'm here to warn all of you. Go ahead and dispute with me. I know my words are falling on deaf ears. All I can do is pray, i can do nothing on my own.[/quote]

What bad things are these apparitions enticing people to do? Grow closer to the Lord through fasting, confession, and the Holy Rosary? You say you've seen the miracles? Why dont you tell us about them. Have you seen Our Lady? How is the sun dancing in the sky a deception? It happened in Fatima and at other apparitions. The sun didnt pull me away from Christ...

Just because I believe in Medjugorje I have deaf ears and dont believe in Revelation? I think that implying that is very ridiculous.

All any of us can do is pray, because none of us can live this life on our own.