Do you believe the Medjigoure "apparitions" to be

[Starets]

[quote name='scardella' post='1387041' date='Sep 17 2007, 12:13 PM']Judging from the fruit of the pilgrimage, I don't see how anyone could say it's of demonic origin. There were major conversions within the group (several people were "forced" by family members to go), healings (spiritual and physical), and even effects on their families and friends. Several people reported that relatives that hadn't gone to church in years all of a sudden had a change of heart and gone to confession and mass.[/quote]

Odd behavior for a demon to encourage, assuming that what ckoslowski and budge are correct that these apparitions are satanic in the first place. I don't have much of a marian devotion in the first place, so I don't care one way or the other!

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='ckozlowski' post='1386486' date='Sep 16 2007, 08:07 AM']I personally believe, after picking up a major in biblical studies, that many who truly trust in their bibles over the church -as scripture commands- and believe in this phenomena will come to the conclusion that satan has used his great signs and wonders to crawl his way into catholic dogma over the course of history.[/quote]I haven't followed all the discussions, but this comment really stood out for me. Could you show me exactly where Holy Scriptures command us to "truly trust in (our) bibles over the church."

Since this doesn't have much to do with the Medjigouri apparitions (i.e. it's a more fundamental issue), I'm going to create a new thread for you.

New thread: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=72877"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=72877[/url]

[eperez874]

they are not apparitions even pope john paul said no one needs to go there we have fatima, and Guadalupe!!!!
he said it in mexico 6 month before he died.
and he did not aprove the aparitions and the bisho comdemend the aparitions.
the bishop said that the case is closed and it was d=the devil appearing in there.

even medigory said "you do not have to marry if you are in love"
that is impure acts that is against one of the ten commandments.
so therefore those apparitions where not valid and where comdemend by the bishop.
the pope even said he does not belive that it was the virgin mary appearing there.

[Dismas]

[quote name='ckozlowski' post='1386684' date='Sep 16 2007, 06:07 PM']Dismas, I would have to say that having spent a full week in these forums on this matter.. that I have not before your reply received such an elaborate intellectual and well intentioned rendition. I have received more insight in your one reply than all of the replies that I have received on this site. I'm guessing you may be in the profession of teaching? If not, I would recommend it. Even though we still differ in opinion on this matter..

-very well said-[/quote]
My deepest thanks, and my gratitude that you gave me the opportunity to learn on how to teach.

Actually, I have blue collar assembly line job in a factory. I suppose God has led me to this profession now, so that I may be better prepared for my future vocation.

Your instincts do you credit, Ckozlowski, as I sincerely believe that I am called to the ministerial priesthood within a monastic or mendicant order (monk or friar respectively). As I am sure you know, a great part of a pastor's duties, Protestant and Catholic alike, deals with teaching the Christian Faith.

Your brother in Christ,
Dismas (namesake of the Good Thief)

[ckozlowski]

[url="http://www.statveritas.com.ar/Los_Frutos_del_Concilio/fotos/Fatima-09.jpg"]http://www.statveritas.com.ar/Los_Frutos_d...s/Fatima-09.jpg[/url]
[url="http://www.statveritas.com.ar/Los_Frutos_del_Concilio/fotos/Fatima-09.jpg"]http://www.statveritas.com.ar/Los_Frutos_d...s/Fatima-09.jpg[/url]

What do you guys make of Muslims and Hindus venerating Mary? and how all major world religions flock to these shrines.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='ckozlowski' post='1388959' date='Sep 20 2007, 08:59 AM'][url="http://www.statveritas.com.ar/Los_Frutos_del_Concilio/fotos/Fatima-09.jpg"]http://www.statveritas.com.ar/Los_Frutos_d...s/Fatima-09.jpg[/url]
[url="http://www.statveritas.com.ar/Los_Frutos_del_Concilio/fotos/Fatima-09.jpg"]http://www.statveritas.com.ar/Los_Frutos_d...s/Fatima-09.jpg[/url]

What do you guys make of Muslims and Hindus venerating Mary? and how all major world religions flock to these shrines.[/quote]

The idea of all major world religions flocking to the shrines is an exaggeration. However, it's true that some people of different religions venerate Mary. Sunni Muslims, incidentally, honour her but do not pray to her. Some Shi'a Muslims will pray to her. The majority of Hindus believe that there is one God who has many facets, so they see no trouble participating in any religious ceremony.

From a Catholic point of view, these understandings of Mary have very little truth in them. But the fact that people of other faiths feel drawn to her doesn't invalidate the Catholic understanding of our Blessed Mother. Muslims honour Jesus and many Hindus worship him as a manifestation of God, but this doesn't invalidate Christianity as a whole. If anything, it is a sign of Catholicism's truth that people from other religions recognise something holy in Mary, something 'real', that makes them want to know more about her.

[dairygirl4u2c]

the bible does say that ALL nations will call her blessed.

[Kirisutodo333]

[quote name='JJMG2001' post='1029426' date='Jul 23 2006, 12:24 PM']"Locutionist Jelena Vasilij: "The Blessed Mother has said: 'Tell everyone that it is you who are divided on earth. The Moslems and the Orthodox for the same reason as Catholics, are equal before my Son and me.'"

I don't see a mention of children here.[/quote]

"Equal" could mean a lot of things. "Equal" could definitely not mean "saved." I certainly think that God loves ALL his children and that the Muslim child (although separated from God and his commandments through Islam) is just as equal as the Christian child. As Catholics, we may be saved through grace and works, but it does not mean we are above all other children of God.

Also, here is what I found on the Medjugorje site about the question to Our Lady. Note the last statement Our Lady has been claimed to have said.

[quote][i]One one of the messages said that all faiths are equal. Isn't this against the Catholic Church's beliefs?[/i]

There was a question asked of Our Lady in October 1981 which was: Are all religions the same? Our Lady answered: "Members of all faiths are equal before God. God rules over each faith just like a sovereign over his kingdom. [b]In the world, all religions are not the same because all people have not complied with the commandments of God. They reject and disparage them."[/b]

The difficulty that some Catholics have had with this answer is based on the belief that the only salvation is within the Catholic Church. But the Catholic Church does not believe this. In fact, Vatican II in its Dogmatic Constitution on the Church "Lumen Genitum" says this: "Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God, and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life."

It is a great privilage to be Catholic and I love my faith. I share my faith through my actions and words whenever possible. But as Matthew 7 says "Judge not, that you may not be judged". It is not up to us to decide who goes to Heaven and who does not by their faith.[/quote]

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1389017' date='Sep 20 2007, 10:15 AM']the bible does say that ALL nations will call her blessed.[/quote]

Dairy,

That is [b]ALL[/b] GENERATIONS!!! ALL means ALL!

[Saint Therese]

I think the fact that the local bishop has made negative statements regarding the apparitions, the fact that they have gone on for SO long leads me to be skeptical. However, I have no real opinion either way since there has been no official declaration by the Church. In the meantime, Fatima, Lourdes, and Knock(etc) are good enough for me.

[Dismas]

[quote name='Saint Therese' post='1394983' date='Sep 28 2007, 10:55 PM']I think the fact that the local bishop has made negative statements regarding the apparitions, the fact that they have gone on for SO long leads me to be skeptical. However, I have no real opinion either way since there has been no official declaration by the Church. In the meantime, Fatima, Lourdes, and Knock(etc) are good enough for me. [/quote]
Just a few. Don't forget Akita (Japan 1973-4).

Also, if you feel like risking your life's blood, you could make a pilgrimage to see Our Lady of Lavang (Vietnam).

Edited September 29, 2007 by Dismas

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='Dismas' post='1395002' date='Sep 29 2007, 06:50 AM']Just a few. Don't forget Akita (Japan 1973-4).

Also, if you feel like risking your life's blood, you could make a pilgrimage to see Our Lady of Lavang (Vietnam).[/quote]

Tourism is flourishing in Vietnam.

If you have the money for the trip and a special devotion to Our Lady of Lavang, do go. It's a beautiful country.

[Saint Therese]

[quote name='Dismas' post='1395002' date='Sep 29 2007, 12:50 AM']Just a few. Don't forget Akita (Japan 1973-4).

Also, if you feel like risking your life's blood, you could make a pilgrimage to see Our Lady of Lavang (Vietnam).[/quote]

I did say "etc.". There's also Our Lady of the Pillar - Saragossa, Spain (ca. 40 AD), Saint Mary Major - Rome, Italy (ca. 352 AD), Our Lady of Walsingham - Walsingham, England (ca. 1061), Our Lady of the Rosary - Prouille, France (1208), Our Lady of Mount Carmel - Aylesford, England (1251), The Black Madonna - Czestochowa, Poland (1382), Our Lady of Guadalupe - Guadalupe, Mexico (1531), Our Lady of the Miraculous Medal - Paris, France (1830), Our Lady of Lourdes - Lourdes, France (1858), Our Lady of Knock - Knock, Ireland (1879), 1347 Siena, Italy St. Catherine , Mary-Tabernacle of the Most High- Ngome to name only a few.

Edited September 30, 2007 by Saint Therese

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1386957' date='Sep 17 2007, 08:03 AM']My personal hope is that when the secrets are revealed one of them will explain how to understand women.
I know its a long shot...[/quote]
Oh man, I hear you buddy. If that day comes, many Catholic men will be looking to the skies with tears in their eyes crying "THANKS MOM!!!"

[Totus Tuus]

I'm just waiting for the Church to make a declaration of authenticity or inauthenticity. I personally do not feel right having anything to do with it until that time.

Edited October 5, 2007 by Totus Tuus