Jesuits Put Up One World Religion Monument

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

I just wanted you to know that the Church does agree with you in that "outside the Church there is no salvation" is not to be understood in the strict sense.

I am not sure what you mean by discussing God outside of doctrine - but am interested nonetheless if you were to start a new thread.

[Justified Saint]

Wow, that happened fast and I missed it all!

For what it is worth, pluarlism in religious studies is nothing new and has occupied the minds of just about every major theologian/philosopher of religion for many years. There are quite plausible and resonable theories to support a vareity of positions (exclusivism, inclusivism etc.) so talking about getting one out of their "comfort zones" is both irrelevant and condescending.

There are no phatmass police that I am aware of, but that could be pretty cool -- good idea! (thinking of cool phatmass police apparel and music

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Like a Child' post='1024847' date='Jul 14 2006, 08:04 PM']
Thank you for your responses, Knight. They are appreciated, and very familiar. I have heard them all of my life. Yet you seem to bring new meaning to the word "rigidity".

I still cannot believe that God would condemn just around 5 billion people to he -double -hockey -sticks though. Instead of enlightened, that appears to me to be small-minded. Let me remind you again that many Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, not to mention Nazarenes, Jehovah's Witnesses, Baptists, and many, many non-Catholic Christians around the world believe that it is not THEY but YOU who are condemned. Doesn't that seem just a little bit interesting to you? Hello, EVERY orthodox member of EVERY faith thinks they have found the "right" the "one" the "true" religion. Because it's the one they know and its the one by which they have been indoctrinated.[/quote]

My referce to "h.e. double hockey sticks" was not referring to God's condemnation of 5 billion people, it was in response to your false view that all gods are God. [color="#FF0000"]Truth is not relative[/color], The Catholic Church is the only True Faith founded by Jesus Christ Himself. Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Nazarenes, Jehovah's Witnesses, Baptists, and non-Catholic Christians are simpley wrong, they are not the True Faith. Muslims, Jews, Hindus, and Buddhists denine Jesus Christ as Lord they can not be the true faith, non-Catholic Christians denine the Church Founded by Christ they can not be the true faith.

[quote name='Like a Child' post='1024847' date='Jul 14 2006, 08:04 PM']
Sorry you didn't like my analogy about refracted light. I believe you used your own though too. . .something about a toy car? Anyway, I didn't say this earlier, but I think Christ is, indeed, "where it's at." I believe that Jesus is the Son of God. (At least we agree on that, right? I acknowledge that my salvation comes from Him. I just have trouble saying definitively that no one else has salvation. I still contend that even with God's magnificent gift of Holy Mother Church and the Bible, we don't know everything. How could we?[/quote]

My understanding of other faiths having "elements of truth" is very different than yours which is all gods are God or something to that effect. You didnt understand my "toy car" refence? Ok, think of it this way Holy Mother Church has the complete Truth, the fullness of Truth, other faiths do not, they only have elements of truth that look similar to truth, but are not The Truth. I do agree Christ is, indeed, "where it's at."

[quote name='Like a Child' post='1024847' date='Jul 14 2006, 08:04 PM']
To try to establish with some degree of certainty that God makes exceptions (meaning He saves some folks outside the "fold" so to speak) let me cite two scenarios. Actually, neither of these addresses other religions, but they do address the exclusivity of Christianity:

1. A woman lives and dies in the farthest reaches of the DRC (the Congo). She never gets the chance to hear of Christ, but she lives an impeccably upstanding and moral life. Is she condemned?[/quote]

There is no guarantee of her salvation, only inside the Church founded by Christ is salvation guaranteed.

[quote name='Like a Child' post='1024847' date='Jul 14 2006, 08:04 PM']
2. A young Native American boy grows up under the harsh hand of rigid, black-and-white thinking missionaries from Europe. Let's say for the sake of argument they badly abuse him (sexually and physically) for all of his years growing up. They tell him he is filthy and worthless, a piece of garbage. They demean him in every way and generally don't behave as Christians should behave at all. The boy grows up with a deep hatred of all things Christian in his heart. The missionaries planted that hatred in his heart. He never converts; he never even comes close. Is he condemned?[/quote]

There is no guarantee of this poor boys salvation, only inside the Church founded by Christ is salvation guaranteed.

[quote name='Like a Child' post='1024847' date='Jul 14 2006, 08:04 PM']
If you answer "NO" to either question, then you acknowledge that God must make exceptions at least some of the time!!! If He makes exceptions for such poor souls as these, might he not do the same for a Muslim, let's say, who loves God with all his heart and will, yet grew up in a MUSLIM culture and thus became MUSLIM. Just as you no doubt grew up in a Christian/Catholic culture and became a Catholic.

That's all I got for now.
[/quote]

Again, There is no guarantee for a Muslim's salvation, only inside the Church founded by Christ is salvation guaranteed.

[Jnorm888]

[quote name='Budge' post='1019472' date='Jul 7 2006, 04:32 PM']
Your priest will tell you what mine did when I consulted him before I left the Catholic Church. He will make excuses for the apostasty.

Dont become an atheist.

Put your faith in God rather then men.

Read scripture, ALL THESE THINGS ARE WARNED OF IN REVELATION.

Rev 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
Act 5:29 Then Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

This verse is very important for these times

Many churches have gone apostate, not just the Catholic one.

It is essential that one put their total trust in God.
You do know that lying is a sin dont you.

Interesting that you see your faith in such a flippant manner.

I would never joke about ceasing to be a Christian.



Ive had Catholics tell theyd become an atheist if they lost faith in the Catholic church before.

In that case they WERENT joking.

Sad that so many have their faith in human institutions rather then in God.
[/quote]



The Jesuits are an order withen the Roman Communion and I assume that they all aren't that way. Just look at Father Pacwah who's on EWTN. Isn't he a Jesuit?


Anyway if you are a Universalist Uniterian then you shouldn't be pointing the finger at anybody being apostate.


You should point the finger at your own group before you point it at Rome.

And I am a Protestant saying this. Alot of Churches are dealing with Liberals...well the Eastern Orthodox looks pretty safe right now when it comes to Liberals, but alot of Churches are dealing with this internal fight.











INLOVE Jnorm

[Thumper]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1024924' date='Jul 15 2006, 12:51 AM']
There is no guarantee of her salvation, only inside the Church founded by Christ is salvation guaranteed.
There is no guarantee of this poor boys salvation, only inside the Church founded by Christ is salvation guaranteed.
Again, There is no guarantee for a Muslim's salvation, only inside the Church founded by Christ is salvation guaranteed.
[/quote]

Knight, could you please clarify what you mean by "guaranteed" savlation within the Church?

Paragraph 14 of Lumen Gentium: "Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but
'in body' not 'in heart.'"

Instead of stressing a guarantee of salvation within the Church, I think it's more accurate to say that Christ has given the Church the fullness of the means of salvation.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Thumper' post='1024974' date='Jul 15 2006, 08:25 AM']
Knight, could you please clarify what you mean by "guaranteed" savlation within the Church?

Paragraph 14 of Lumen Gentium: "Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but
'in body' not 'in heart.'"

Instead of stressing a guarantee of salvation within the Church, I think it's more accurate to say that Christ has given the Church the fullness of the means of salvation.
[/quote]

There is no guarantee of salivation outside of the Church. As for within, the Bible says, and as Holy Mother Church teaches, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I will be saved in the end(Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like Paul I'm working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with absolute confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).

[Jaime]

[quote]There is no guarantee of salivation outside of the Church [/quote]


One of the best typos EVER!!!


<------ smilie in the Church

[homeschoolmom]

didn't that happen elsewhere on the phorum recently?

[KnightofChrist]

Miy finigers jsut wnot lete me tpye corectly... woopisie

[Laudate_Dominum]

[MissScripture]

[quote name='Like a Child' post='1024847' date='Jul 14 2006, 09:04 PM']
To try to establish with some degree of certainty that God makes exceptions (meaning He saves some folks outside the "fold" so to speak) let me cite two scenarios. Actually, neither of these addresses other religions, but they do address the exclusivity of Christianity:

1. A woman lives and dies in the farthest reaches of the DRC (the Congo). She never gets the chance to hear of Christ, but she lives an impeccably upstanding and moral life. Is she condemned?
2. A young Native American boy grows up under the harsh hand of rigid, black-and-white thinking missionaries from Europe. Let's say for the sake of argument they badly abuse him (sexually and physically) for all of his years growing up. They tell him he is filthy and worthless, a piece of garbage. They demean him in every way and generally don't behave as Christians should behave at all. The boy grows up with a deep hatred of all things Christian in his heart. The missionaries planted that hatred in his heart. He never converts; he never even comes close. Is he condemned?

If you answer "NO" to either question, then you acknowledge that God must make exceptions at least some of the time!!! If He makes exceptions for such poor souls as these, might he not do the same for a Muslim, let's say, who loves God with all his heart and will, yet grew up in a MUSLIM culture and thus became MUSLIM. Just as you no doubt grew up in a Christian/Catholic culture and became a Catholic.

That's all I got for now.
[/quote]

They are not "exceptions" so much as they are things decided by God because He is omnipotent. He sees what is in their heart, which we can never see. It isn't like God has this giant rule book and at the back He has a list of "If you were abused, then you are excused from believing this, this and the other thing." But He knows what went on in your life, and is therefore able to judge. It seems that we are sort of reducing this to our human level of thinking about "fairness" and that is not God's level. It isn't a generalized thing. Each life is different and God knows, it isn't for us to judge.

[pyranima]

[quote name='Budge' post='1019455' date='Jul 7 2006, 04:05 PM']
When I was back in the Catholic Church, I had to face facts that their interfaith teachings were a delusion. Since I had already spent years in a Unitarian Universalist church, {I was a cradle Catholic} I couldnt be fooled by such words like dialogue and interdependence. I know they werent Christian words. You need to beleive that CHRIST IS THE ONLY WAY. I made the decision to place all of my trust in Jesus Christ. If you leave the Catholic Church you do not have to be an atheist, You can turn to Him totally.

The Roman Catholic church is fulfilling Revelation 17.
[/quote]
One word Rome-O-Phobic.

the Churches teaching in interfaith dialoge is that we should listen to what others have to say, but it does not mean that we have to agree with them. we want a conversation the only way to do that is for both sides to be heard. the Churches offical teaching is nothing like what has been pracited since vatican II (note i did not say Vatican II was wrong). Jesus is the way the truth and the light and as such anyone who is Christians should be a memeber of the Church that Christ founded. Jesuits are dieing out because they have all but abandoned orthodoxy. it is also not a one world religous monument but a monument of peace there is a big difference. one is the idea of a one world religion the other is that even though we are of different religions we should live in peace. you have made it very clear by several of your posts that you do not care about what is true, you dont care to follow Christ were he will take you. you for whatever reason dislike Orthodoxy, your false religous standard is too simple, and simple religious fail, that is why there are so many protestant denom. being Catholic is turning to Christ Totally, it is the complete giving of oneself to Christ without reservation. Ideas such as Once saved always saved, Faith alone (an antiChrist doctrine {see james 2:24}), and sola Scriptora, are false doctrines. they have no common sesne to them whatsoever. Orthodox turn to those who came before us to help understand what Scripture means, this is why we look to the Church Fathers, we also do not deny things that are in Scripture simply because they do not make us feel good or we do not like them. we also have an understanding that scripture is not sufficent because it does not address modern problems. it is also in error to assume that the bible contains all things that the Apostles were taught, they would not have addressed things that did not need to be addressed things that were assumed to be known. for example liturgy, or the immaculate conception. they also would not have used certian words such a trinity, that is a development of doctrine and of Language. that is how language and doctrine develop, it is contemplated then how it works is rooted out and finally it is given a single term to simplify the def. it is just like any word we give a complex idea a single word to convey simply the definition.

here is an exercize that will demonstrate what i mean, contemplate the word Is, what it means and all that it implys. you will be amazed.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Akalyte' post='1019431' date='Jul 7 2006, 03:26 PM']
That monument just turned my stomache. I have a feeling all this focus on other religions by some in our Holy Church is going to make me leave it one day. Its going to push me into Atheism.

I believe the Catholic Church is the only "way". Just as the Church has always taught. It just seems like we are sliding away from that. I guess Christ is not the way the truth and the life and the only way to the Father, I guess buddha, muhhamed, beetles, trees and whatever else people worship lead there as well. HERESY!

I'm not going to lie I find this troubling.
[/quote]

You and me both brother, you and me both...

Budge, you have a lot of interesting stuff that you have put up since you've been here. Even though you and I are operating from perhaps polar opposites in my opinion I do agree with much of what you have put up. I think you have come to a wrong conclusion, but the evidence you post is intriguing. However, I will say that as a word of advice, whatever you are trying to promote you aren't doing it in the best way you could be. Try a different approach, calmer. I don't believe many will agree with you because even though you have good information you draw the exact wrong conclusion from the evidence. But I enjoy reading your stuff, keep it coming... At least as long as they'll allow you to keep it up. I'm surprised they have allowed this Catholic bashing to continue for so long in light of my requests, but so be it .

[Socrates]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1029553' date='Jul 23 2006, 01:48 PM']
Budge, you have a lot of interesting stuff that you have put up since you've been here. Even though you and I are operating from perhaps polar opposites in my opinion I do agree with much of what you have put up. I think you have come to a wrong conclusion, but the evidence you post is intriguing. However, I will say that as a word of advice, whatever you are trying to promote you aren't doing it in the best way you could be. Try a different approach, calmer. I don't believe many will agree with you because even though you have good information you draw the exact wrong conclusion from the evidence. But I enjoy reading your stuff, keep it coming... At least as long as they'll allow you to keep it up. I'm surprised they have allowed this Catholic bashing to continue for so long in light of my requests, but so be it .
[/quote]
Thus confirming my observations that schismatic "rad trads" are merely the latest breed of anti-Catholic protestants.
I have long noted that despite what they might think, they are far from "polar opposites," both sharing a common disdain for Rome and Papal authority, and relying on prideful willful ignorance and misinformation, rather than facing the Church with humility and an open mind.

You might try reading the actual teachings of the Church, rather than pulling all your "information" from anti-Catholic sources.

[ruso]

I like me this monument, clearly in favor of the talk among religions, the Jesuits are not the only in proposing it, also the Franciscans, the IVE.........
But we cannot forget that our faith is the true one, without falling in the proud one because of it.

Edited July 26, 2006 by ruso