Short Sheeting The End Times

[Eutychus]

[quote] Membership in Christ's Church is what is required for salvation, not membership in the Jewish tribe.[/quote]

Wow. You must have another bible than the one that I have.

When Nicodemus came to Jesus, and asked "what must I do to be saved.."

I missed the part where Jesus said to join a church.

And when the jailer at Phillipi asked Paul, "what must I do to be saved..."

Again my book has that section torn out, about joining your church.

I guess it is time to toss my KJV, NKJV, NIV ... since all of them say pretty much the same thing and buy that NAB the new version or is that the newer version, or the newEST version they are releasing next month?

Is that the one that has "YOU MUST JOIN A CHURCH" to be saved in those pivotal passages?

Just wondering.....

[ReinnieR]

and of coarse you take those verses out of context.

and the doctrine of extra ecclasiam nulla sallus.

[pyranima]

The Rapture is a protestant invention from the 1830's. dont believe me? do a little research.

[Eutychus]

[quote] The Rapture is a protestant invention from the 1830's. dont believe me? [u]do a little research.[/u][/quote]

INDEED...shall we? { just to show you how you have been mislead intentially by those with agenda's....}

[quote]Byzantine Text Discovery:

[u]Ephraem The Syrian[/u]

by Chuck Missler

[b]In recent years, many opponents of the pre-tribulation rapture view have made dogmatic assertions that this view was never taught before 1820 A.D.1 There have been attempts to attribute the origin of this view to John N. Darby.

Grant Jeffrey has found an ancient citation from a sermon ascribed to [u]Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373 a.d.), which clearly teaches that believers will be raptured and taken to Heaven before The Tribulation.[/u]2

[u]Ephraem of Nisibis was the most important and prolific of the Syrian church fathers [/u]and a witness to early Christianity on the fringes of the Roman Empire in the late fourth century.[/b]

He was well-known for his poetry, exegetical and theological writings, and many of the hymns of the early Byzantine church. So popular were his works that in the fifth and sixth centuries he was adopted by several Christian communities as a spiritual leader and role model.

This sermon is deemed to be one of the most interesting apocalyptic texts of the early Middle Ages. The translation of the sermon includes the following segment:3

[color="#3333FF"][b] [i] [u] "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."[/u][/i][/b][/color]

This text was originally a sermon called On the Last Times, the Anti-christ, and the End of the World. There are four existing Latin manuscripts (the Parisinus, the Augiensis, the Barberini, and the St. Gallen) ascribed to St. Ephraem or to St. Isidore . Some scholars believe this text was written by some unknown writer in the sixth century and was derived from the original Ephraem.4

The sermon describes the events of the last days, beginning with the rapture, the Great Tribulation of 3 1/2 years duration under the Antichrist's rule, followed by the Second Coming of Christ. In Ephraem's book The Book of the Cave of Treasures, written about 370 A.D., he expressed his belief that the 69th week of Daniel ended with the rejection and crucifixion of Jesus the Messiah.5 ........

June 1995 Personal Update NewsJournal.[/quote]

[url="http://www.khouse.org/articles/1995/39/"]http://www.khouse.org/articles/1995/39/[/url]

Edited August 10, 2006 by Eutychus

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Ooh, it says it's in Latin...I'd love to see the original.

[Justified Saint]

I love how the Church Fathers are suddenly relevant when it comes to "proving" sectarian doctrines like the rapture.

Mention anything else like the clear witness of apostolic succession/authority, the eucharist, and justification then of course it's business as usual: "Oh no, they were pagans who corrupted the simple faith of the Bible! Heretics, all of them!"

Anyway, this Chuck guy is funny: "many opponents of the pre-tribulation rapture view have made [b]dogmatic assertions[/b] that this view was never taught before 1820 A.D."

Who makes it a matter of dogma the date of an "opponent's" view? This kind of linguistic confusion is to be expected for anyone trying to treat the rapture as if it were a matter of scholarly inquiry.

[Eutychus]

[quote]Who makes it a matter of dogma the date of an "opponent's" view? This kind of linguistic confusion is to be expected for anyone trying to treat the rapture as if it were a matter of scholarly inquiry. [/quote]

And that means what in English...please?

[Justified Saint]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1040862' date='Aug 10 2006, 07:24 AM']
And that means what in English...please?
[/quote]



And this is supposedly a model of perfect English:

[quote]and a physical Israel sitting on the ground, for all the world to see, with Jerusalem as the capital city, not ruled by the papacy, make Augustine and his City of God nonsense, that vetted, verified, and began the Catholic Amillenial teachings look like the mistake it really was, and is?[/quote]

It's just painful reading that.

[Gal. 5:22,23]

Eutychus,

How wonderful to see a Protestant cite an early church writer, you are to be commended! And one who lived some two hundred years [i]after[/i] the death of the last Apostle. Incredible!

May I share two much earlier writings?

St. Ignatius of Antioch wrote in 110 A.D., "You must all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery as you would the Apostles. Reverence the deacons as you would the command of God. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop, or by one whom he appoints. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. Nor is it permitted without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate the agape; but whatever he approve, this too is pleasing to God, so that whatever is done will be secure and valid."

The above is the earliest use of the term "Catholic Church. It is especially interesting that it is a man of Antioch who first writes the term Catholic Church; for it was also at Antioch, as we know from the Acts of the Apostles (11:26), that the followers of Jesus were first called Christians.

Also from St. Ignatius in 110 A.D., "Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the Flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, Flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His goodness, raised up again. [b]They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes.[/b]

St. Clement of Alexandria wrote in c. 202 A.D., "From what has been said, then, it seems clear to me that the true Church, that which is really ancient, is one; and in it are enrolled those who, in accord with a design are just. We say, therefore, that in substance, in concept, in origin and in eminence the ancient and Catholic Church is alone, gathering as it does into the unity of the one faith which results from the familiar covenants, - or rather, from the one covenant in different times, by the will of the one God and through the one Lord, - those already chosen, those predestined by God who knew before the foundation of the world that they would be just."

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1019107' date='Jul 7 2006, 09:38 AM']
I'll short sheet an answer for you.

The Church teaches us how to live properly. If we do that, the end times (whenever that may be) will not be an issue.
[/quote]
that is the most killer response to anything I have read in a long time

[Jesuspaidtheprice]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1040268' date='Aug 9 2006, 02:04 PM']
Since many of us now believe we are seeing prophecy playing out right now over in the Middle East.
[/quote]

Christians have been predicting the end of the world and the second coming since shortly after Christ ascended into heaven. Using the 'signs-of-the-times' as a predicto-meter for the end of the world hasn't worked for 2000 years. We know that no one knows the hour but the Father and the hour will be unexpected. Playing with current events to predict the end of the world is, IMHO, like playing with numerology. It is a waste of time.

[Eutychus]

[quote]We know that no one knows the hour but the Father and the hour will be unexpected. [/quote]

I guess the Olivet Discourse, Matthew 24 is torn out of your NAB?

And is Revelation stapled shut, never to be opened?

And Ezekiel is that guy that does weird things....so forget about HIM, right?

{ gotta love strumming along with the biblical illiterates....}

One question, give it a shot, ok?

WHY is Matthew 24 there, if not for our edification and warnings?

[Jesuspaidtheprice]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1046117' date='Aug 18 2006, 01:14 PM']
I guess the Olivet Discourse, Matthew 24 is torn out of your NAB?

And is Revelation stapled shut, never to be opened?

And Ezekiel is that guy that does weird things....so forget about HIM, right?

{ gotta love strumming along with the biblical illiterates....}

One question, give it a shot, ok?

WHY is Matthew 24 there, if not for our edification and warnings?
[/quote]

Praise be to God that we are literate and have Bibles so readily avaliable.

I have a KJV and NIV.

How do you know you are reading the correct signs into Matthew 24?

Edited August 18, 2006 by Jesuspaidtheprice

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Jesuspaidtheprice' post='1046122' date='Aug 18 2006, 12:19 PM']
How do you know you are reading the correct signs into Matthew 24?
[/quote]

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1047103' date='Aug 21 2006, 06:52 AM']

[/quote]


Because, silly! he has ripped 2 Peter and 1 Timothy out of his Bible...you know...the exhortations against personal interpretation of scripture and the BIBLICAL designation of the CHURCH as the 'pillar and foundation of truth'.

Like arguing with a stick, or trying to carry water in a mousepad.....