Resurrexi Posted July 6, 2006 Author Share Posted July 6, 2006 [quote] 1. No, Catholics do not have to believe either the Crusades were just or that God willed them. That is a question of historical military tactics, not Catholic doctrine.[/quote] you are being disobedient. The Pope used his authority to give indulgences to them and he said that God willed them. Therefore, they must have been just. [quote]2. No, Catholics are not forbidden from supporting the war in Iraq, as Pope Benedict XVI explains:[/quote] even if they are not forbidden from supporting the Eye-rack war you cannot compare it to the Crusades. The Crusades were directly related with the Faith, so the Pope had spiritual authority over them, and he said that God willed them, so we must believe that God willed them. [quote]The Pope's opinion about a particular war is a prudential judgement on certain temporal factors, and whether or not those factors justify a military response. This is as much true about the Crusades as it is about the war in Iraq.[/quote] No, you are wrong. The war was not secular, but sacred, and the Pope declared it to be just using his magestirium, so it must have been good. [quote]4. Of course the Pope granted indulgences to Crusaders. He thought the war was just. The Pope was entitled to his opinion, and entitled to act as he saw fit according to his position in the civil affairs of the day. [/quote] The Crusades had to be just or the Pope would not have granted indulgences, by the authority of the Church, to fighting in it. If the Crusades were unjust than the Pope would have been in error on something about faith and morals: indulgences. [quote]The Crusades are not a matter of Catholic faith. They were not a matter of Catholic faith when they occured, and they are not a matter of Catholic faith today[/quote] yes they are. [quote] They were a civil military response that happened to receive the approval of the Bishop of Rome.[/quote] they were not just approved by the 'Bishop of Rome', they were approved by the Vicar of Christ and the Head of the Universal Church, and therefore, approved by the Most Holy Trinity. [quote]The Bishop of Rome was involved in the launching of the Crusades because he had responsibilities for the temporal affairs of his time.[/quote] No, he launched the Crusades using his responsibility over spritual affairs. [quote]This will be my last response.[/quote] adieu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avemaria40 Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 [quote name='Era Might' post='1018458' date='Jul 6 2006, 04:23 PM'] Since the Pope's "prudential" judgements are not binding, as we were constantly reminded when America went to war with Iraq, they are not binding when it comes to the crusades. Your captions around "Catholic" in this poll are unnecessary. [/quote] I agree with Era Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted July 6, 2006 Author Share Posted July 6, 2006 I take it Ave Maria doesnt support the Good And Holy Willed By God Through the Infallabiliby of the Vicar of Christ Crusades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 [quote name='StThomasMore' post='1018587' date='Jul 6 2006, 05:57 PM'] I take it Ave Maria doesnt support the Good And Holy Willed By God Through the Infallabiliby of the Vicar of Christ Crusades. [/quote] No need to make personal attacks like that against Ave Maria. era's got it.... re-read his arguments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jnorm888 Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 I agree with the Crusades, I just don't agree with some of the bad things that happened. INLOVE Jnorm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justified Saint Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 Look how odd the question is worded "Do you support the Crusades?", at least that is not as bad as saying "Do you believe in the Crusades?" which is like asking do you believe in trees. One does not support dogmas, they believe in them. How are the crusades a definition of doctrine? -- well, they aren't. Once again, as my discussion with EENS highlighted, history is being confused with doctrine. Church discipline is a matter of contingent, historical circumstances. hot stuff's clever insight at the very start should have ended this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 What's to support? Is that Geoffery Chaucer fellow out looking for a handout again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyranima Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 most people dont understand the background of the crusades. i like to put it like this: if i came into your house killed your family and kicked you out do you have a right to take back whats yours and have justice? then why dont we Christians? think of it this way... If someone took over the Vatican and the area around it would we have the right to march to retake it? **GRABS SWORD AND SHIELD** "To Rome" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bx_racer Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 (edited) [quote name='pyranima' post='1018644' date='Jul 6 2006, 06:25 PM'] most people dont understand the background of the crusades. i like to put it like this: if i came into your house killed your family and kicked you out do you have a right to take back whats yours and have justice? then why dont we Christians? think of it this way... If someone took over the Vatican and the area around it would we have the right to march to retake it? **GRABS SWORD AND SHIELD** "To Rome" [/quote] so... assuming you live in the u.s., if people of native american descent started killing your family off youd be perfectly ok with it. Edited July 7, 2006 by bx_racer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyranima Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 [quote name='bx_racer' post='1018736' date='Jul 6 2006, 08:28 PM'] so... if people of native american descent started killing your family off youd be perfectly ok with it. [/quote] Actually i would be one of the Native Americans killing the Whites... **Grabs tomahawk** this was actually an isssue that i needed to deal with coming into the Church because there were alot of bad things done to my people in the name of the Church. it took alot of research on my part and the discovery of an apology from JPII before i could come into the Church. My People got screwed... i deal with it. now we have casinos and we take the whitemans money... haha... i know alot of black people that hold what the white Americans did to Blacks during the time of slavery against whites today. there was this one kid in class who was going off at the only 3 white kids in the class because of it, i turned around and told him to "Shut up, at least they imprisoned your people, they tried to whipe mine out.". What you are saying is two different scenarios, Natives are no longer confined to the reserves they get a good start from the Government if they choose to move off the reserve. we Natives tend to be intraveted and dont like to be bothered by the outside world. The government is working with my people to set things as right as it can be, however the muslims have a "convert or die" attitude that they still keep. this is way to indepth for me to go into here but there is a difference in that the American Government is trying to do something where as the Muslim government does nothing but kill anyone who converts and refuses to get along. it has taken a long time for my people to get what they have gotten, however the muslims have held the middle east hostage for longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jswranch Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 The pope had more reason to call the crusades than the US did in going to war against the Germans (WWI or WWII). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avemaria40 Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 [quote name='StThomasMore' post='1018587' date='Jul 6 2006, 06:57 PM'] I take it Ave Maria doesnt support the Good And Holy Willed By God Through the Infallabiliby of the Vicar of Christ Crusades. [/quote] No, I'm saying that the Pope's teachings extend as far as Faith and Morals (when it comes to infallibility) and are not binding, like Era says, when it comes to prudential judgments. I support the idea of Crusades, sometimes we have to go to war to defend our Faith and I think the Pope had a right to call them, however, there were many abuses during the time of the actual Crusades and I'm wondering if part of that is the reason why it seems that many places in the Middle East are hostile to Western society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesuspaidtheprice Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 The crusades were tragic times in human history, as is anytime when we have to turn to brutal violence to solve problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lahecil Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 I agree with Jesuspaidtheprice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted July 7, 2006 Author Share Posted July 7, 2006 disobedience! how dare you not accept the pope's teachings!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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