Salvation By Grace Alone?

[Donna]

A person can increase in grace.

But this doesn't make sense to you, Mr. Master?

[Circle_Master]

not when there is nothing else to receive, and God loves us to the fullest extent possible

[Katholikos]

Yes, once saved by faith you will end up practicing what you preach. That is the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

Sola Fide is one of the three "legs" upon which Protestantism was founded, the other two being Sola Scriptura and Sola Gratia.

In your first post, you took a position that is diametrically opposed to Sola Fide --you said that salvation is by grace alone. Decidedly unProtestant. You -- inadvertently, I'm sure -- accepted the teaching of the Catholic Church.

In the instant post, you take the position that salvation is by faith -- you have reverted to Sola Fide.

Make up your mind.

Oremus pro invicem (let us pray for one another).

JMJ Likos

[Katholikos]

alright, the thread has degraded already. thanks anna and likos... You threw enough anti-protestant lines to get everyone off track.

If a moderator could delete all posts after JasJis's last one I would appreciate it. I would like real discussion and not 'protestant bashing'.

You mischaracterize our comments. They're not "anti-Protestant lines." They are TRUTH. It's the TRUTH that is anti-Protestant!

I again say that arguing scripture is futile, when the Bible is not the origin of nor the basis for the original, authentic, doctrine of salvation taught by the Apostles.

Jesus didn't leave us a Bible when he ascended into heaven. He left us a Church to lead us to all TRUTH (Jn 16:12), endowed with the Holy Spirit TO BE WITH US ALWAYS (Jn 14:16). That Church is the very visible One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church -- the city set on a hill as a beacon of salvation to the world (Mt 5:14). The Church, in time, wrote the NT and produced the Bible.

Your method of trying to determine what Christ taught is to argue scripture. The correct method would be to ask the Catholic Church. She wrote the NT.

Didn't they teach you the truth in Bible College, Circle?

Oremus pro invicem,

JMJ Likos

[Anna]

Lets get a real thread started.  I say we are saved by grace alone.  Why do I say this?

"So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace." from Romans 11:5-6 and also

"who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began" in 2 Timothy 1:9 and also

"For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness."" in Romans 4:2-3 and

"to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,"

Now why do I say grace by any sacrament is wrong? Romans 9:30-31

"What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law."

observations

a) Gentiles did not pursue righteousness, yet they got it

b) Righteousness is by faith

c) Israel pursued a "system", a "law" that would bring righteousness - yet received nothing

Contrasts to sacraments-

a) You pursue sacraments, you say you receive grace by them, therefore you seek them for grace.  Israel also pursued grace by giving "corban" gifts and by following the Law - they received nothing.

b) Righteousness is a result of faith - not a deed

Now, please let us have some healthy discussion here.  I.E. no posts like Katholikos, and no text dumping.

Discuss my verses, and discuss my conclusions.  Perhaps I misunderstand something of Catholicism.

Circle,

You wanted to get a real thread started. This is a real thread.

You stated we are saved by grace alone. We agreed.

You quote Scriptures about grace and about works. No one attacked or denied those verses of the Holy Word of God.

You claimed that Sacraments are wrong. I showed you how they are right.

You requested healthy discussion, then immediately placed a gag order on one of our foremost posters here. (How healthy is that?!)

You asked that we discuss your verses, and your conclusions.

You remarked that perhaps you misunderstand something of Catholicism. I remarked that you do, indeed misunderstand. I defined Sacraments for you and explained why we believe in them and hold them dear.

You countered by thanking me for my anti-protestant remarks, and asking that my post be banned.

When anti-Catholic bigotry and anti-Semitism is posted by your cohort and we rebuke him, you tell us to move on...no request for deletion of those posts, ay?

You want healthy debate? You want a real thread?

Then I suggest you be prepared to take correction as much as you desire to dish it out.

Peace be with you.

Edited January 4, 2004 by Anna

[Bruce S]

Holy Orders (priestly ordination, instituted by Christ at the Last Supper during the washing of the Apostles' feet.)

Argh.

Ordination is instituted by Christ's FOOTWASHING?

It was the EXACT OPPOSITE. It was to show that we are to be humble towards each other, not lord it over as special, it is the ANTITHESIS of Bisops in fancy robes, with rings to be kissed.

I think the foot washing command is being lost, my church does not do that, I have asked over and over why not? After all, there is a DIRECT command by Jesus that this be done by all of us.

John 13

Jesus Washes His Disciples' Feet

1It was just before the Passover Feast. Jesus knew that the time had come for him to leave this world and go to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he now showed them the full extent of his love.[1]

2The evening meal was being served, and the devil had already prompted Judas Iscariot, son of Simon, to betray Jesus. 3Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God; 4so he got up from the meal, took off his outer clothing, and wrapped a towel around his waist. 5After that, he poured water into a basin and began to wash his disciples' feet, drying them with the towel that was wrapped around him.

6He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, "Lord, are you going to wash my feet?"

7Jesus replied, "You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand."

8"No," said Peter, "you shall never wash my feet."

Jesus answered, "Unless I wash you, you have no part with me."

9"Then, Lord," Simon Peter replied, "not just my feet but my hands and my head as well!"

10Jesus answered, "A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you." 11For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.

12When he had finished washing their feet, he put on his clothes and returned to his place. "Do you understand what I have done for you?" he asked them. 13"You call me 'Teacher' and 'Lord,' and rightly so, for that is what I am. 14Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another's feet. 15I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you. 16I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. 17Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.

[mulls]

during mass once the priest washed my feet, and a few others' as well....i forget the circumstance, if it was a holy day or what.

[Dave]

during mass once the priest washed my feet, and a few others' as well....i forget the circumstance, if it was a holy day or what.

Had to have been Holy Thursday.

[PatrickRitaMichael]

i'm kind of halfway between everyone here, i guess. i'm a catholic, 100%, but when i was little my stepdad took us to a baptist church on sundays (baptist sunday school is more kid friendly than regular adult mass b/c i was hyperactive). anyway, so i did awana, did sunday school for several develloping years and thought that everyone was christian but that catholics were quieter in church and baptists like modern songs. i also ended up going to a christian reformed college (calvinist) and got a whole different perspective. i guess i know a little about a lot and a lot about only a little... just some background.

ANYWAY, i think i understand where some misunderstandings are coming from. i'll try and explain what i know, or think i know, but forgive me if i misrepresent the Church's teachings b/c i am human, ignorant, and not yet a saint.

* the idea that you can get more grace from God.

i think protestants believe (and i'm only speaking from a Baptist and Calvinist perspective) that grace is God giving the one-time gift (Jesus' blood) which we don't deserve and which gets your soul into heaven, it is what justifies us and makes us acceptable to God. our souls were black before but now are white and whiteness get us into heaven. being in heaven is being with God and you can't get more perfect than that and there is nothing humans can do to earn that. i think sometimes 'mercy' and 'grace' get interchanged even though they are supposed to be distinct.

but for the catholic things are a bit more complex (and beautiful in my opinion). (keep in mind that catholics, too, believe that humans cannot earn anything.) grace is not so much God's mercy on us as a thing that God gives to us by His mercy (does that make sense?) there are two types of grace: one is given during baptism, makes our souls 'white as snow,' and another makes your soul perfect. protestants believe that Christ makes us perfect when we are 'saved' but i don't think this is true because if He makes us perfect, then why do we go on sinning? If we were perfect, we wouldn't sin anymore. some would say it is because of our humanity and it is impossible for us to be perfect. but the bible says that nothing impure shall enter heaven and if we keep sinning, that means our souls are impure (even if we confess our sins, the TENDENCY to sin is there and means our souls have something wrong with them) and if we are impure, no one can get into heaven. God is nicer than that. i think that salvation is a life-long process of grace (sanctifying grace, not the kind that repairs our soul during baptism) molding our souls into perfection. you can think of it as original sin causes our souls to be black when we're born, white during baptism, and then takes the cloth that is our soul and sews it into a beautiful garment to be worn by God (perfection and union with him). sewing can only be done one stich at a time and in the same way, graces are imparted to our souls one by one and slowly lifts us up to Him (yes, God can perform miracles but who's to argue w/ the way He chooses to do things). so when one says that sacraments transmit (is that the right word) grace, it is not SALVIFIC grace, but SANCTIFYING grace which makes us perfect and closer to God. it's important to make the distinction. this post is really long and i apologize. i hope this helps a bit. it's important for us to make sure we define everything b/c it's really easy to get hung up on a word like grace and not even be talking about the same thing b/c we have different ways to define and distinguish terms. i hope that i got the Church's position right. if not, some please correct me! thanks

[PatrickRitaMichael]

about the footwashing thing: the priesthood IS about humbling yourself to God and your neighbor. the priesthood is about sacrifice (no family, obedience to the church, serving his parish) and humility and you have to honestly look at this stuff before just making an ignorant comment about it. people may see the holy father pope john paul II's fancy robes (are they hand-me-downs?)and think that he's not being humble, but look at the way he carries himself, look at what he's done, look at his words and you'll see: the last will be first and the first will be last. think about it: we give honor to our president and other worldly figures, shouldn't we honor the head of our Church and shouldn't he humbly serve the people in the Church? if he doesn't do just this, then i think i may have the wrong pope hmm... maybe i'm getting off topic here... i just don't like it when people bash priests. they're cool

[Circle_Master]

what college did you go to?

[PatrickRitaMichael]

calvin college. it was a calvinist school :)