Katholikos Posted January 4, 2004 Share Posted January 4, 2004 P.S. From the joint Lutheran-Catholic Accord on Justification: "Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works." 61.4 million of the world's 65.4 million Lutherans -- the ones represented by the World Lutheran Federation -- have given up Sola Fide. It started with Luther in 1517, it ended here, with the Accord, which was signed in 1999. The Church has always taught that we are saved by grace alone. Why? Because the Bible says so? No. Because the Apostles taught it. And the Bible says it because the Church, on which the NT is based, taught it. An article on the Accord can be found at http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9912...les/dulles.html Avery Dulles, who wrote it, is now a Cardinal. JMJ Likos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted January 4, 2004 Share Posted January 4, 2004 Now, please let us have some healthy discussion here. I.E. no posts like Katholikos, and no text dumping. Someone obviously fears Katholikos. And it's easy to see why. Superb posting Katholikos; I hope it will be read! Pax Christi. <>< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted January 4, 2004 Share Posted January 4, 2004 "Now, please let us have some healthy discussion here. I.E. no posts like Katholikos, and no text dumping." :: Gee circle I didn't know we needed your permission to post on our board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellenita Posted January 4, 2004 Share Posted January 4, 2004 Yep, Katholikos...always straight to the heart of the matter. :D As ever, your wonderful wisdom and logic challenges.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleflower+JMJ Posted January 4, 2004 Share Posted January 4, 2004 i wub likos!! :wub: :wub: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted January 4, 2004 Share Posted January 4, 2004 Now why do I say grace by any sacrament is wrong? Romans 9:30-31 "What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law." observations a) Gentiles did not pursue righteousness, yet they got it b) Righteousness is by faith c) Israel pursued a "system", a "law" that would bring righteousness - yet received nothing Contrasts to sacraments- a) You pursue sacraments, you say you receive grace by them, therefore you seek them for grace. Israel also pursued grace by giving "corban" gifts and by following the Law - they received nothing. b) Righteousness is a result of faith - not a deed Funny how you can point your finger at Catholics when you understand so little about the Sacraments. You think that they are works, and that we just perform them to gain graces. You think that we are pursuing righteousness. So wrong, so very wrong. It seems rather odd, that that is often how I see some of my fundamentalist friends pouring over their Bibles...pursuing righteousness. Not only do they want to be righteous, they just want to be right! You say we "pursue sacraments." You say that we "seek sacraments." What the heck do you mean by that? Do you even know what a Sacrament is? Well, I'll tell ya. There are seven of them. The first is baptism. (water baptism, received once in a lifetime. One baptism, One Faith, One Lord.) The second is penance. (We confess our sinfulness, our loss of grace, when we are truly sorry that our actions have separated us from God. Reconciling ourselves back to God restores our relationship with Him, and restores grace to our souls.) The third is Holy Communion. (We eat the Body and drink the Blood of Christ. "He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in Me and I in him." The presence of Christ in our souls leaves us with graces which strengthen us spiritually.) Next, in most instances, is Confirmation. (Laying on of hands by the bishop, and annointing with oil. The bishop confirms the young adult's baptism.) Matrimony. (A holy union between man and woman, elevated to the dignity of a sacrament by Christ's first miracle at the wedding feast of Cana.) Holy Orders (priestly ordination, instituted by Christ at the Last Supper during the washing of the Apostles' feet.) Annointing of the Sick. (Laying on of hands, annointing of the sick and dying.) So tell me how we pursue these things. These are simply part of ordinary Catholic life....like breathing. Do you pursue breathing? A Sacrament is an outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace. Yes, we have Faith in the Sacraments Christ instituted, because HE gave them to us. He doesn't give useless gifts, but useful ones. These seven gifts impart graces to those who worthily receive them. Holy Communion, for instance, imparts damnation for those who receive unworthily, according to St. Paul. The Sacraments are not things that we chase after like Don Quiote chasing after windmills, but rather are generous gifts from a loving Lord, which we graciously, humbly, and gratefully accept and receive. We have Faith in Him who gave us these gifts we call Sacraments. We don't consider Sacraments to be works. If you want to know the two categories of works, they are corporal works of mercy, and spiritual works of mercy. Click here to learn about our 'works.' Pax Christi. <>< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted January 4, 2004 Share Posted January 4, 2004 Yep and faith without works is dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted January 4, 2004 Author Share Posted January 4, 2004 (edited) alright, the thread has degraded already. thanks anna and likos... You threw enough anti-protestant lines to get everyone off track. If a moderator could delete all posts after JasJis's last one I would appreciate it. I would like real discussion and not 'protestant bashing'. Edited January 4, 2004 by Circle_Master Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulls Posted January 4, 2004 Share Posted January 4, 2004 there's no such thing as protestant bashing, it's only spreading the truth. that's how it is justified, correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce S Posted January 4, 2004 Share Posted January 4, 2004 But the NT is not the basis for Christianity anyway. The Bible doesn't claim to contain all the truth that God revealed. It's the Catholic Church that makes that claim. Silly us. We make the mistake of thinking that Jesus is the basis for Christianity. I guess we misread that one. Bigotry. Blind, stupid bigotry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted January 4, 2004 Share Posted January 4, 2004 Silly us. We make the mistake of thinking that Jesus is the basis for Christianity. I guess we misread that one. Bigotry. Blind, stupid bigotry. Leave the forums, troll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PedroX Posted January 4, 2004 Share Posted January 4, 2004 Bruce, How can you talk about bigotry, when you would have us believe in a vast Jewish media conspiracy against the Catholic Church? Do you really expect us to take your charges seriously? (check thread titled "The Problem") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellenita Posted January 4, 2004 Share Posted January 4, 2004 I am thankful that I have known many loving and gentle protestants over the years - it would be so upsetting to imagine that the tone and spirit evidenced in the numerous posts on different threads recently at Phatmass was truely representative of all protestants...... I have always felt that my questions about catholicsm have been dealt with in a gentle and respectful way at Phatmass. I've been challenged, yes, and people have responded in a way which shows they are strong in their faith, but I wouldn't expect (or respect) anything less from a catholic site..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted January 4, 2004 Share Posted January 4, 2004 Bruce, I find it rather amazing that you call us bigots, while your own actions are pretty much bigotry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted January 4, 2004 Author Share Posted January 4, 2004 Bruce, How can you talk about bigotry, when you would have us believe in a vast Jewish media conspiracy against the Catholic Church? Do you really expect us to take your charges seriously? (check thread titled "The Problem") actually he said 'all Christians'. i'm really not upset about it though, some think that, I disagree, lets move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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