Salvation By Grace Alone?

[Circle_Master]

Lets get a real thread started. I say we are saved by grace alone. Why do I say this?

"So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace." from Romans 11:5-6 and also

"who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began" in 2 Timothy 1:9 and also

"For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness."" in Romans 4:2-3 and

"to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,"

Now why do I say grace by any sacrament is wrong? Romans 9:30-31

"What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law."

observations

a) Gentiles did not pursue righteousness, yet they got it

b) Righteousness is by faith

c) Israel pursued a "system", a "law" that would bring righteousness - yet received nothing

Contrasts to sacraments-

a) You pursue sacraments, you say you receive grace by them, therefore you seek them for grace. Israel also pursued grace by giving "corban" gifts and by following the Law - they received nothing.

b) Righteousness is a result of faith - not a deed

Now, please let us have some healthy discussion here. I.E. no posts like Katholikos, and no text dumping.

Discuss my verses, and discuss my conclusions. Perhaps I misunderstand something of Catholicism.

[foundsheep]

To start this off Circle, what is the meaning of saved to you? And no, I will use other versus to back me plus Discuss yours.

[Circle_Master]

To be saved is to be reconciled to God and to be in Christ. I think that is simple enough, and yet defines it well enough.

[M.SIGGA]

Grace, the free gift from God to us unworthy sinners is what saves us. Here I agree as all Christians should. I believe what the Catholic faith teaches that being saved must be looked at from all three representations in Scripture of how we are saved; in the past, present, and future tenses. I'm not any fancy kind of theologian or anything, but this is what I believe. I got some of these verses from a devotional book I have and it would have taken too long to write them all out so I hope you look some up! ok here I go:

1. Jesus saved us through his death on Calvary 2000 years ago, which was a completed action and is spoken about in the past tense. (Acts 4:12, Eph 1:7)

2. Being saved is also spoken about in Scripture in the present tense. (1Pet 3:21, Mark 16:16, 1 Cor 15:2)

3. Being saved is also described as a future event that will that will be experienced by only those who are found faithful to Christ at the very end of their lives. (meaning: Salvation can be lost if one is found unfaithful at the end of his life): Mark 13:13, Matt 10:22, Phil 2:12-13, Heb 3:14, Heb 12:14, Heb 12:1, 1 Cor 9:27, 1 Cor 10:12, 2 Tim 2:12, Rom 11:22, Gal 6:9, Col 1:21-23, James 1:12, 1Tim 1:18-19, 1 Tim 4:16

Yes I have been saved when Jesus died on the Cross for me 2000 yrs ago and redeemed humanity.

Yes I am being saved as I strive to walk with Jesus every day of my life.

Yes I hope to be saved when Jesus comes again.

Regarding what you said about the sacraments, from an Old School Christian (Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox) point of view, the Sacraments aren't just outside actions that one seeks to "fill up on extra graces", but are completely intertwined in our faith. The Sacraments are a part of our faith and through our faith we recieve God's grace. This might not be clear enough, but I'll try to clarify it better if you want me too.

Grace is the saving power of God and by our Faith we are saved. Catholics believe saving Faith is not just a proclaimation that happens once and that's it, and I know all Protestants don't believe this either. To be saved one needs to practice what they preach and not be lukewarm or hypocrites. Faith is every aspect of a Christians life everyday in their lifelong walk with Jesus Christ (this is faith and works).

I hope this is a good enough explaination and thanks for seeking to have a peaceful thread b/c otherwise I wouldn't have responded to a question like this. God Bless :D

[jasJis]

What you call 'text dumping' is a documented response.

The Church teaches that Faith is by Grace alone. It also teaches we don't come about Faith through our own efforts, but God sends them through others, namely the Church. We are also required to participate with those Graces, because Faith without works is dead. Sacraments are but one of the other additional ways that Grace is given.

Your example is a poor one. The Gentile's righteousness was by Faith, and Faith without works (our paticipation) is dead. Paul also clearly points out that the laws the Isrealites pursues "would" lead to righteousness, but did not. Why? Because they did not participate with the graces that were given through obedience. Also, untill the Ressurection, the culmination of Salvific Grace did not exist which explains the need of the Messiah in addition to, (not instead of) obedience to the Law.

You don't misunderstand as much as you ignore about Catholicism. Have you attempted to reference your specific assumptions that Catholics teach with the Catechism?

[M.SIGGA]

To be saved is to be reconciled to God and to be in Christ. I think that is simple enough, and yet defines it well enough.

I agree with this too, I just stretched it out with my answer.

[Donna]

From what the Scriptures read, to be saved is to be transferred from a state of certain wreckage and death, to one which is the opposite.

Examples: a) Peter's first sermon in early Acts telling the sincere, pious Jews to "save yourselves from this perverse generation" by being baptized in Christ and etc; bee) The people in the ark of Noah were saved; those others outside the ark were not saved.

Would you agree, Mr. Master, that both faith and faithlessness (eventually) manifest themselves by acts, or works of some sort?

The works of the law are distinguished from what is called "good works", which are done in a state of grace, with faith, and for a motive of pleasing God. These good works cannot be done except as a response to God's initial overture, just as you quoted in Romans re: being chosen by grace.

Here in 2 Titus, St. Paul says:

"...we should live soberly and justly and godly in this world,

looking for the blessed hope and coming of the glory of the

great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: Who gave Himself

for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity, and might

cleanse to Himself a people acceptable, a pursuer of good

works. These things speak and exhort: in Christ Jesus our Lord."

In the Apocalypse, in Jesus' letters to the 7 churches, He begins most with the salutation, "I know thy works." To the church of Sardis (Apoc 3: 1-2):

"I know thy works, that thou hast the name of being

alive, and thou art dead. Be watchful and strengthen

the things that remain, which are ready to die. For I find

not thy works full before my God."

Yes, Abraham's faith is counted as righteousness, but that is the beginning, not the end, all the way up to the knife he poised above his son. Else we'd end up burying our talents like the wicked servant, who was guilty, because he said of his master, "I know" you are hard and exacting, etc;

Jesus will separate the sheep and goats at the end of time; the elect are those who "saw me hungry and did feed me; naked and did clothe me; in prison and sick, who did visit me."

As far as Israel goes, they were cut off because of harlotting with strange gods (themselves included). Our Lord says it isn't what comes into a man, but what comes out which defiles him; the uncleaness of certain meats pales mightily vs. the wicked and bad-willed heart "serving" Him, even in the guise of fasts and sackloth and meats and moons..

And in Romans, the chapter 11 you quote, is all about the Gentile olive branch being grafted onto the salvation tree, so to speak; and that is why we should not boast, because God cut off his natural son; and the Gentiles will be as well if they prove to be faithless as Israel, manifested thus: "they have slain thy prophets, they have dug down thy altars."

Re: the law vs. the sacraments. Israel "stumbled against the stumbling stone", Christ Himself. They do not/will not believe in Him.

For starters, those who, in faith, pursue the sacraments believe in Christ crucified.

Edited January 3, 2004 by Donna

[frozencell]

Circle...

In short, these verses only support the idea that if God didn't want us in heaven we couldn't do anything about it.

But God has shown us mercy despite our wrongdoing and evil ways, and THROUGH grace we are called to a life of works.

Works are an outward expression of our love and devotion to God.

Only out of true love and devotion should we do these works.

Love and devotion is required to be counted as one of God's children and enter heaven.

Hence, faith without works is dead and thus no acceptance into heaven.

[frozencell]

Grace is an OPPORTUNITY to get to heaven.

Works and faith is the WAY there.

[Circle_Master]

M. SIGGA - Grace is the saving power of God and by our Faith we are saved. Catholics believe saving Faith is not just a proclaimation that happens once and that's it, and I know all Protestants don't believe this either. To be saved one needs to practice what they preach and not be lukewarm or hypocrites. Faith is every aspect of a Christians life everyday in their lifelong walk with Jesus Christ (this is faith and works).

Yes, once saved by faith you will end up practicing what you preach. That is the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

M. SIGGA - 3. Being saved is also described as a future event that will that will be experienced by only those who are found faithful to Christ at the very end of their lives. (meaning: Salvation can be lost if one is found unfaithful at the end of his life): Mark 13:13, Matt 10:22, Phil 2:12-13, Heb 3:14, Heb 12:14, Heb 12:1, 1 Cor 9:27, 1 Cor 10:12, 2 Tim 2:12, Rom 11:22, Gal 6:9, Col 1:21-23, James 1:12, 1Tim 1:18-19, 1 Tim 4:16

I also agree, and that is where Philippians 1:4-6 comes into play...

"he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."

It was never wrong to believe in eternal security until after the Church agreed on semi-pelagianism. Even Augustine fully purported a double predestination view which many study today still. It does get tough sometimes to reconcile people who you see in life "fall away" from the faith, but even them can be a) unsaved to begin with or b) resisting the Holy Spirit - fallen to sin like those in 1 Cor 5.

JasJis - The Church teaches that Faith is by Grace alone. It also teaches we don't come about Faith through our own efforts, but God sends them through others, namely the Church. We are also required to participate with those Graces, because Faith without works is dead. Sacraments are but one of the other additional ways that Grace is given.

The Church teaches that Faith is by Grace alone - AGREED COMPLETELY

we don't come about Faith through our own efforts - AGREED COMPLETELY

We are also required to participate with those Graces - well, yeah, but since faith is by grace - the participation is by grace as well. If it wasn't then we aren't saved by "grace alone".

Sacraments are but one of the other additional ways that Grace is given - "with every spiritual blessing" Eph 1:3 - How can you get "more grace"

JasJis - Your example is a poor one. The Gentile's righteousness was by Faith, and Faith without works (our paticipation) is dead. Paul also clearly points out that the laws the Isrealites pursues "would" lead to righteousness, but did not. Why? Because they did not participate with the graces that were given through obedience.

James 2:14 - What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

I want to point out something in that verse. "does not have works". It is not "does not do works". If one has works - it is because they come naturally, from the Holy Spirit dwelling within him. If one works on works - he does it from his own purpose, not God's.

James 2:18 - Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works

Works show that one has faith

James 2:21-22 - Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;

You see, faith was active the entire time. When he did it - it was proof. It was the completion. It is not the faith that justified his heart, but his works, because they were the image of what he really had faith in. To have faith without works is dead.

James 2:23

and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"-- and he was called a friend of God.

IT was fufilled - because he believed, he worked, and because he worked, he was justified. No works here = no faith.

And what are works? Works are everything a person does, just like James says it is giving to the poor, or taking care of widows - the Apostles are also known for their mighty works (2 Cor 12:12). They are never sacraments. Sacraments themselves are supposed to give grace, works are never said to give grace.

From what the Scriptures read, to be saved is to be transferred from a state of certain wreckage and death, to one which is the opposite.

Amen. It is odd to hear that one can believe since God turns one to the opposite, they believe God will transfer one back to that ruined state, and then God will transform them again, and transfer them again, etc.

Would you agree, Mr. Master, that both faith and faithlessness (eventually) manifest themselves by acts, or works of some sort?

I would always agree with that. That is how Abraham is justified by works in James (and says the next verse "and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness")

The works of the law are distinguished from what is called "good works", which are done in a state of grace, with faith, and for a motive of pleasing God. These good works cannot be done except as a response to God's initial overture, just as you quoted in Romans re: being chosen by grace.

Yes, they are done in a state of grace (salvation) with faith and for a motive of pleasing God.

In the Apocalypse, in Jesus' letters to the 7 churches, He begins most with the salutation, "I know thy works." To the church of Sardis (Apoc 3: 1-2):

Right, because that is what reveals what is in the heart.

Yes, Abraham's faith is counted as righteousness, but that is the beginning, not the end, all the way up to the knife he poised above his son. Else we'd end up burying our talents like the wicked servant, who was guilty, because he said of his master, "I know" you are hard and exacting, etc;

It is the beginning only because it is fulfilled when works are present.

Wonderful post Donna, I'll interact with it more if I get time later. I must get back to work shortly.

I'll respond later frozencell - but yes to most of that.

[mulls]

ah, a real dialogue, how refreshing.

[Circle_Master]

yes, and I apologize for not being able to answer fully at the moment. Let me work on that tonight after work - peace

[jasJis]

Thank you, Circle, for your respectful and thougtful post.

From your response, the role of Works, their source, and purpose seem to be murky and where we man (or may not) disagree. Give me a bit and I'd like to explain that a little more and see where we are at.

I've got to drink beer and eat bratworst at the next door neighbor's patio, prepare for a Confirmation class tommorrow, enjoy Mass, do some work for work, and get ready to go out of town Monday, but I can squeeze in a reasoned response by Monday night.

God bless.

[cmotherofpirl]

Hurray!

civility at last!!!!!

[Katholikos]

Now, please let us have some healthy discussion here.  I.E. no posts like Katholikos, and no text dumping.

Discuss my verses, and discuss my conclusions.  Perhaps I misunderstand something of Catholicism.

What you "misunderstand of Catholicism" is that the Church didn't read the New Testament and then decide what it meant. That's the way all Protestant denominations began -- from some guy or gal deriving yet another interpretation from the same 66-book Bible -- and that's how all Protestant denominations justify their faith and "proof text" their doctrines.

The Catholic doctrine of salvation came from the lips of the Apostles long before the NT existed. The NT was written by the Church, to the Church, and for the Church. The New Testament is based on the teaching of the Catholic Church, not vice versa. The Church's doctrines are found in the NT precisely because that's what she was teaching at the time the NT was written. Some of the doctrines are stated explicitly, some implicitly, some obliquely, some definitively. But the NT is not the basis for Christianity anyway. The Bible doesn't claim to contain all the truth that God revealed. It's the Catholic Church that makes that claim.

One of the four criteria used by the Church in establishing the canon of the NT was that the writing had to conform to the Church's teaching.

Get it?

The Catholic (Universal) Church was born at Pentecost in 33 A.D. The local Church of Thessalonika was established during Paul's second missionary journey in about 50 A.D. Thessalonians is the first of the Pauline letters to be written, in about A.D. 51. Some 20 years of oral teaching by the Apostles preceded the first writing that later came to be included in what was called the New Testament. Do the letters to Thessalonika address the question of whether salvation is by grace? Or all the other questions asked by today's Christians?

The NT was not completely written until the end of the first century or the first quarter of the second century (dates from the RSV). And no one knew which of the writings that circulated among the local churches were "scripture" and which were not until the Catholic Church canonized both the OT and the NT and formed the Bible at the end of the fourth century and beginning of the fifth.

Don't you think the Apostles were able to answer the questions about the basis of salvation for the members of the Churches they established during those 20 years? Do Paul's two letters to the Thessalonians deal with that question? Or do you think the early Christians had to wait 4 centuries -- almost 5 -- before the NT was written and canonized (made "scripture") to figure it out for themselves what Christ taught by reading the words on a page, IF THEY COULD READ? The writings -- some of which were eventually canonized as the "inspired Word of God" -- were READ ALOUD TO THE CONGREGATION BY ONE OF THE FEW PEOPLE IN THE LOCAL CHURCH WHO COULD READ.

I know you couldn't wait to hear from me. You very charitably expressed your sentiments in your post.

"To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant" (Newman).

Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic and to know the True Faith established by Jesus Christ.

JMJ Likos